March 8, 2007...9:02 am
Episode 8 - Playing with Fire
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Synopsis: A local fireman proves too hot to handle when Rayyan considers dating.
Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:
Videos courtesty of mydien
What did you think of this episode? How does it compare to the previous episodes?
Are there any other topics from the episode that you want to discuss? Ask a Question.
375 Comments
March 8, 2007 at 11:54 am
I have a question for my Muslim brothers and sisters. Having seen this episode, I’m now really curious as to the details of the proper ways for young Muslim men and women to meet each other (and eventually marry). If the firefighter had been Muslim, could Rayanne have gone out with him? If so, who would be a suitable chaperone? Is it just enough that a third person is there? If not, how do you find a spouse?
Especially, if you are living in a small town, where there are only a few people of your faith, what do you do?
My family is Amish, so our traditions are very different. (You wouldn’t believe what was considered traditional on an Amish date.)
March 8, 2007 at 12:48 pm
John,
It depends what version of Islam you wanna know about. There is no exact way in dating. The main rule is not to have a sexual relationship before marriage, this is something taught in all religions, not only Islam. Of course, Muslim women can not marry non-Muslims.
Religions in general focus on the term ’sex’. You feel like it’s the only thing in this universe, beside bringing tension between people of course.
In Amish, the father paints the gate of his house with blue paint when he wanna marry his daughter, is that true?
Cheers mate.
March 8, 2007 at 12:49 pm
I found myself a bit put off by this episode. She never seemed to actually explain to Mr. Fireman why he couldn’t kiss her etc but simply kept repeating, “It’s Islam.” Is it not possible that a non-Muslim might be willing to follow the proper etiquette for courtship? How did her own Mother (apparently non-Muslim at some point in time) come to be with her father?
I just wonder what sort of reaction there would be if a show like Corner Gas were to discourage a character from dating Muslim by ridiculing their names and saying that they were too “shallow”.
March 8, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I can understand, the way it was presented, that people would be turn off.
The main matter is that dating between a Muslim and a non-Muslim is not encouraged. The show in fact, showed a far more tolerant view of it, than is convention. I think that if ‘Corner Gas’ showed Christians unwilling to marry Muslims in order to protect their tradition than I would have no issue. I suppose making fun of the name ‘Jeff’ is odd, and I would blame this on the Caucasian writer so of the show, as it is not common and not funny either.
In ‘Traditional’ Islam, there is no dating. If you see a girl you like, or vice-versa you would approach them or their family, meet them a couple of times in the presence of another and determine whether you want to marry. There is no physical contact prior to marriage, and Islamically speaking there is no such thing as an engagement. Currently, Muslims are trying to adapt to their new home, Canada, and the result is many Muslims will meet another in a restaurant or other public place and then decide. Family approval is paramount, and the decision is made quickly. Also, Muslims now often get engaged and then meet often after that.
If a non-Muslim and Muslim do come into contact and feel a strong attraction to one another, the non-Muslim should convert for it to be perfectly acceptable, the main intention behind this is to assure that the Children are raised Muslim.
March 8, 2007 at 4:56 pm
I got the feeling that Amar wasn’t making fun of the name “Jeff” because it was odd but I think he was saying that ’cause he was jealous.
I thought this episode was really interesting - what was damaging to Rayanne’s reputation (besides the fact that she considered going out with a non-Muslim) was the fact that the whole Muslim community was talking about it. I think the whole backbiting thing did more to damage people’s views of her than her own consideration of dating. But in the end, she was the only one who decided that she was in the wrong - no one else apologized for jumping to conclusions.
March 8, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Here is a video about women in Islam.
March 8, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Asalaam alaikum
Ned whats your point with that stupid video? Of course men are in charge of the women because they are stronger and dont let emotions sway their thinking. BTW that video is trying to increase hate and fear of Islam by showing images of things you have NO idea about. For example, the picture they show of the men wearing white shrouds with blood and holding swords? How do YOU know those werent Shi’a Muslims celebrating their holy day of Ashura? And that woman in the first image, where she is in the sand and the men have shovels? For all YOU know, it could’ve been an entirely different situation. It’s like, what if I made a movie on YouTube showing pictures of white men and women holding whips and chains to a audience of people from Tajikstan? I could easily tell them that this is what the men and women in the West do, they tie eachother up and hit eachother violently with whips. OF COURSE, I know that this is called S&M and SOME couple practice it. So just because you saw some pictures and videos CLAIMING to be how women are treated in Islam, go talk to an actual Muslim woman. I am a Canadian convert and I am almost 19, and I married a man from Arabia who is 27. Does he hit me and tell me all the time that HE is in charge? NO. In fact, he treats me waaaay better than any non-Muslim guy I have ever known before Islam. My husband treats me like a QUEEN. So my advice to you is quit allowing yourself to be fooled by the anti-Islamic propaganda. Here is a famous Hadith said by the Prophet Muhammed (SAWS), who NEVER raised his hand at any of his wives:
“The best among you (the Muslims) are the ones best to their women (wives, mothers, daughters, sisters), and I am the best out of all of you.”
This is in regards to how a woman is treated and honoured. Dont take the examples of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the tribes who practise weird cultural habits in Pakistan or the backwardness of Iran and apply it to ALL Muslims. Islam liberates the women by giving them more rights. I was born and raised in Canada all my life and to be accepted in this society you have to become a sex object to men by wearing nasty clothes and going out to parties where you risk being drugged by a stranger and then being raped. Hah! NO THANK-YOU! I will stick to my Islam and be kept safe by my husband, respected by my Muslim and non-Muslim friends and my modesty will be guarded with my Hijaab. Alhamdulillah!
Salaam alaikum!
March 8, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Check this out.
It is ok to beat your wife in Islam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2302441830400822891
March 8, 2007 at 6:58 pm
So, this Iman says that it is ok to beat your wife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
March 8, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Hahaha, the wife beating topic. Funny how this ALWAYS manages to appear in Islamic talks.
Ok, here’s the deal.
Yes, Islam allows the “beating” of your wife. But don’t confuse the understanding of “beating” with your own understanding, and linking it to the domestic violence I’m sure you are all too familiar with.
In Islam, God has dictated to us steps to resolve disputes between husbands and wives. Disputes are inevitable when you are living together, but to stay together, you have to overcome them. So then, what are the steps outlined by God?
1. Gently talk to each other and try to work things out.
2. If that doesn’t work, then they do not sleep together. Giving each other distance can stir the angry mind back into calmness.
3. If step 2 doesn’t work, then family mediation is called in. A family member, or members, come and try to help resolve the problem.
4. Now the “beating” comes. Assuming that the wife is in the wrong and screwing things up, she is struck with the following conditions:
1. Cannot be done in front of children.
2. Cannot leave any marks on the skin
3. Cannot leave any internal damage (eg broken bones).
4. Cannot strike the face or other sensitive areas.
5. And another that I’ve heard is that it cannot make a sound.
What all of this shows is that the “beating” (which is more like just a single strike), is not meant to be physically damaging, but instead is symbolic. It’s meant to be like a “WAKE UP! What are you doing?!?”
You see, Islam doesn’t encourage the hitting of your wife (or husband), but instead, regulates it. Fighting is going to happen in marriages, and sometimes, they could become physical. Islam puts up a barrier on this to say “Look, here is the boundary”…and if you look, the boundary is so restrictive in whole beating issue that you might as well not do it.
Every Muslim should try to follow the example of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), and like Aalia Canadian mentioned, he never beat his wife, and said to be good to your wives. So then how can people claim that Islam not only allows the beating of wives but encourages it? Regulation is different from an allowance. Remember that.
Don’t try to twist things around to suit your own corrupt agenda.
March 8, 2007 at 8:50 pm
I am a huge fan of little mosque. I live in the US
The one thing I was objecting to is calling baber extremist. He might be extremist in his views, but also he is the only character in this sitcom which has a beard and a kufi(cap). Is the director trying to potray that people with beard and kufi are extremist?
If not, how about showing a bearded muslim without extermisit views as well to balance it
March 8, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I really enjoyed this episode.
And oh! how Amaar was jealous. Loved it!
March 8, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Anyone who has read my posts knows that I am a very liberal-minded muslim. This episode, though, has just breached all the lines I drew. It made me very mad.
Courtship is too serious of an issue in my Islam. It is a huge topic as the consequences (family? destruction? adultry? children? sex?) are too grand. This is one muslim “law” that seems totally mispracticed, misrepresented, and misunderstood.
This episode did no justice in addressing this issue. I think that the way Rayan treated Jeff (who was portrayed as an innocent non-muslim) and kicked him out of her home was RUDE. Not being allowed to date does NOT allow her to trample him the way she did. I think a good muslim, or a good ANYTHING, put in that sutuation should have at least elaborated. She should have rejected him very differently.
I thought this was about bridging gaps? Are we now briding a gap by turning people away without an explanation? Treating Jeff as if he is not human just because he is a non-muslim? Does the viewer not empathize with a man who, from his frame of reference, did nothing wrong?
If I had written this episode, I would have either emphasized that Jeff was a bad person not worthy of an explanation; or, if he is a good and innocent non-muslim, then I would have forced Rayan to empathize and explain to him as to why she has changed her mind - could she not turn him down without leaving a bitter impression on him?
Yes, I imagine some muslim girls may have been in a similar scenario. But I can’t imagine a good person being so rude to someone. A ‘good person’ would follow up and reconcile, at least make the effort to let him understand. Otherwise, she is just rude and of no manners. You make a mistake, then you take the responsibility of fixing it with an explanation “No, Jeff, our beliefs are different and I cannot be with a non-muslim. I hope you find what you are looking for…”
Remember Rayan is supposed to be intelligent. She is a doctor. In this episode she behaves like a 14 year old of no class. Until now, her character has been admirable. She has been a voice of reason and justice throughout the series. All of the sudden she makes two huge mistakes: First, agreeing to the date, and second, being so rude to a seemingly innocent person. But at the end, she is only held accountable for one. She only apologized to Amar for setting up the date. Doesn’t Jeff deserve a sincere apology as well? “Sorry for kicking you out of my home Jeff, I was nervous and I made a mistake asking you to come.”
I think that something as simple as writing Jeff’s ‘exit line’ with more anger and frustration would have fixed this episode in many ways. At least then she would have been righteous and we would not have needed closure with Jeff’s character. Maybe he was just a bad actor?
I also thought that Fatima’s character did something odd in this episode. In once sentence she defends Islamic all-girl schools, and in the next she takes the little girl’s side. Fatima is supposed to be stubborn. Her signature “raised eyebrows” facial expression is that of an extremely stubborn woman. Yet she changes her mind, lowers her eyebrows and puts on a supportive smile for the little girl. Shouldn’t the girl need to plead a little to gain Fatima’s compassion?
Amar and Rayan flirting at the end… oh.. I have to comment. It’s okay if he has a crush. But again, you’d think that an intelligent well-educated man, a lawyer, would at least recognize and admit by now “oh wait a second… I’m acting like a jealous kid, I think I have feelings for Rayan”. He doesn’t need to tell anyone about this just yet. But after this obvious display of affection, a credible Amar would have at least admitted to himself and to the viewer that he has considered it.
Zarqa - do something! Please…
March 8, 2007 at 11:26 pm
I invite everyone to respond to the following questions.
1.) Father’s and daughters.
Yassir is not at all religious: “Why would any normal person want to learn about Islam.” Yet he gets bent out of shape when he hears his daughter was holding hands.Why?
2.) Social pressure. Sex outside of marriage is equally forbidden to men and women in Islam, yet all too often its women more than men whom society puts over the coals for not appearing chaste. Why?
3.) Gossiping among the choir.
What role does gossip play in your religious community?
4.) Virgins for life.
Why was Rayyan’s mother so eager to see her dating?
5.) Mixed messages.
Rayyan says she hurt Jeff. She used him to rebel. Babur, to put his foot down with his daughter. The Imam, as an object of his jealousy. Yet everyone claimed to be acting in the name of Islam. Feelings were hurt. What image do we give about our religion when we act from mixed intentions.
6.) It’s all in the pamphlet.
Jeff also used Islam to get to Rayyan. But what if he had been seriously interested in learning about the religion? How should one respond to questions about your faith?
7.) Opposite Reactions.
Babur’s daughter says she hates him when he plans to send her to boarding school. Sometimes when parents to raise their children strictly is backfires and causes them to run the other way. What is a parent to do?
8.) Flames of Love.
Imam Ammar usually takes a level, moderate approach everything; however, he goes CRAZY when when it seems Rayyan is interested in another man. Does anyone know how we can get love’s irresistible power to work for us rather than against us as people of faith?
March 8, 2007 at 11:32 pm
9.) Put some color in it.
Babur’s daughter is afraid of becoming an “Islamabot.”
Babur says that God is his witness that he has “no imagination.” How do we instill our practice of religion with the creative vitality it needs to prosper?
March 9, 2007 at 12:54 am
(Sorry but I’m not finished)
Yassir - a Lebanese man married to a western convert. He lacks religion, he is openly sexual and flirty, makes out with his wife infront of his scarf-wearing daughter, yet he suddenly finds himself in a position where he is preaching to his daughter? I just don’t buy it.
In this show, he is the voice of practicality. Dude, your daughter is probably in her late 20’s. She obviously has a more religious mind than you do. She has chosen to wear hijab when your own wife doesn’t. She prays regularly when you and your wife don’t. And now you are at a moral crossroads with her? A practical man with very little religious drive would have allowed his daughter this freedom with enough trust that she would make the right decision. He would probably be concerned that she would fall for a non-muslim - as a Lebanese man he probably doesn’t want that publicity among his family. But I see Yassir leaving room for this, and not worrying about it until it has happened. Isn’t this what he has told us about himself? In this episode his denial statements were uncertain and he second-guessed them instantly. This from the man who has re-assurance for everything?
Yassir has often left things for the last minute. I see him being in denial about it for much longer. I see him ignoring it until if/when it got serious (even Baber was able to ignore his daughter’s period). And, when/if Rayan says “Dad I love Jeff”, I see Yassir plotting a scheme to break them up, and finally compromising on a scheme to convert Jeff to Islam to please the muslim relatives in Lebanon. Rayan and her mother have demonstrated authority over Yassir several times already. Why is Yassir questioning this authority now? Would Homer Simpson question Lisa or Marge?
If Rayan was younger and not already a doctor, I can imagine Yassir wanting to protect her from boys all together - probably because he knows how boys think because he was the same. But she is of a marrying age, and he must be aware of this as any practical Lebanese man would be. So this scenario is not an option.
I feel that episode 8 weakened all the characters. In fact, the only consistency I’ve seen is from Baber’s daughter. She has not yet lied to us about herself and we can absorb her actions. But the other characters need to make up their minds about who they are. We can only relate to a character if we know him/her well enough.
March 9, 2007 at 1:01 am
WOW, I cannot believe stuff like this is being said here. Where are half of you so called Muslims getting your informaiton?
First of all, I have NEVER seen a line in the Quran that states to ‘beat’ your wife (not even a gentle slap). I’m sure most of the garbage being spilled in here is coming from the widely accepted Hadiths. These books have been screwing up the religion since it’s first arrival. There is only Abu-Barkar (this is the only Hadiths that does not contradict any of the lines in the Quran). Thousands more were written up to a century after the Prophet’s death. They are unverifiable, especially because some of them were written during the Crusades.
And the man being in control because he’s stronger and blah blah blah? Did anyone ever think of looking into history before they wrote stuff like this down. The Quran is written for the past, present and future. So that means, that some things relate to the time of the Prophet and some only pretain to the present.
I agree, Rayaan should have explained why she couldn’t kiss him, rather then just saying it’s Islam- it’s not a chore.
And to you NED, if you’re going to type something, at least do yourself a favour and type something true. Yes, it’s true, a lot of bad things are happening in the Muslim world, some of it because of it’s own people and some of it because of the people outside of Islam.
For example, certain Christian sections (and I won’t say which ones but I think if I say look up Bush everyone will figure it out), have actually had their own Christian people pretend to be Muslim scholars in order to mess up the faith from the inside. And that is why Muslims, who blindly follow these people, believe in things like Jesus will come back. Prophet Mohammad (PBBUH) was the last prophet so why a long ago passed on prophet return for the Muslims? But millions of Muslims believe this?
SO lesson here is….I talk waay too much. Sorry for sounding a little angry, but really enough is enough. You want to teach others about religion, you’re going to have to learn it first. I did not go through 7 years of religious studies, and major in Islamic history to see such a wonderful religion be screwed by untruths.
Want to learn more, I’ll be happy to give you my email
March 9, 2007 at 3:10 am
Azeena, not to start any crazy arguments with other Muslims, but it seems that YOUR perceptions of certain things are a bit out of whack.
So I’m assuming you’ve read the Quran, then you’ve probably come across Sura Nisa (chapter 4), and ayat 34, which reads as follows (Yusuf Ali Translation):
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
There you go, your never has now become a once. The fact that this is in the Quran and an explanation of it is what I wrote above after Ned’s posts.
You mention that “Abu-Barkar” is the only source of authentic hadith. Unforunately for you, that is incorrect. First of all, it is “Al-Bukhari”, and “Abu Bakar” (you even wrote that wrong) was the name of Prophet Muhammed’s (pbuh) closest male companion, and father of his wife, Aisha.
Both Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are considered authentic sources of hadith. They both contain ONLY sahih (authentic) and muthawathri (undisputed) hadith.
“And that is why Muslims, who blindly follow these people, believe in things like Jesus will come back.”
Oh, sorry to burst your little bubble here, but this hadith is muthawathri. Undisputed. It came from so many different sources that there is no chance it was fabricated, etc. It is even higher than sahih. So Jesus IS coming back. There is a REASON why there are many similarities between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism…and that is that they all came from the same source. But Christianity and Judaism (as Muslims believe) were corrupted along the way, and so the message had to be reaffirmed.
In the Quran, Sura Maryam, ayat 33 (Yusuf Ali Translation):
19:33 “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
This is a narration of what Jesus (pbuh) said while in the cradle. “the day that I die”…Muslims believe that Jesus never died, and that he was raised up to heaven alive. He will return, kill the anti-christ (Dajjal), and will live out his life here on Earth and die here on Earth before the Day of Judgment would begin. It is one of the major signs of the Day of Judgment.
Oh, and please don’t try to bring your “religious studies” and “Islamic history” studies here. I’m assuming you studied these in a secular university? Yeah, cause otherwise, you wouldn’t be thinking the way you are. I’ve spoken with another person who was much like you. Studied “Comparative Religion” in school, and did a Masters in “Islamic History” and a PhD in “The Caliphate”. Too bad all of his secular studies led him farther away from Islam than when he began. There are both secular (worldy) and religious (spiritual) aspects of Islam. If you neglect one side, you won’t have the complete picture. Both are needed to have a comprehensive understanding.
“You want to teach others about religion, you’re going to have to learn it first.”
Yes indeed. I still need to do LOTS more studying, but you need even more. Before you act like you’re a scholar, go and study under some REAL Islamic scholars for a few years. Oh, and at least grasp the basics of classical Arabic and its grammar before you even attempt to act intelligent in the ways of Islam. It doesn’t look too good when you rattle off “Islamic facts”, yet screw up the most basic things even Muslim children would know.
March 9, 2007 at 6:04 am
OK, if they had her explain things to Jeff the way Rayan responded to me above, it would have made more sense.
I really like all of the characters (except the Immam, just too smarmy). Even Baber, who I didn’t care for at first, has grown on me. But I agree with what someone else said, much of the actions in this episode were out of character for them.
I also don’t by the “wife hitting” argument. If you haven’t resolved things after following all of those other steps (talking, give some space, family mediation) why would a ‘wake up slap’ make any difference other than to act as some sort of ultimatum.
Does this mean that, if the husband is in the wrong, the wife can give him a ‘wake up slap’?
March 9, 2007 at 6:46 am
A question back to John, the original poster. I thought that Amish people didn’t use things like computers or televisions. Is that a generalization?
March 9, 2007 at 8:31 am
Bringing the conversation back to the original topic (dating) someone was asking what the “proper” way for muslims to date is and how muslims usually do it. First, I want to say that I am a muslim woman, I am muhajjaba which means I cover my hair and body, and I am Egyptian.
The way a muslim should date is not set in stone, and it depends upon your own personal beliefs and the culture you were raised in.
At the risk of generalizing, I will say that Egyptians are more liberal than say, Saudi Arabians, and I know for a fact that many egyptians date, but the definition of “dating” is different. First, there is usually no physical contact, and it is always with the intention of getting to know each other so as to get married eventually. The parents sometimes know and sometimes are left in the dark until the woman and man are ready to get married. E.G. I know tons of peole who dated through college and after graduating each told their parents and got married. Of crouse, their are many exception to this norm, but this type of dating is common.
Now I am not in anyway saying that this is the proper or improper way to date in Islam, I am just shedding light on what’s cultural prevalent in Egypt.
As a woman, among your peers, it’s for the most part culturally acceptable to say you have a boyfriend, but the assumption will be that there is no physical contact involved.
Personally, I haven’t allowed myself to date in the past because I was not ready for marriage, but now that I am, I am dating, which involves going to a public place and talking and getting to know the person, that’s it. I don’t see anything inappropriate with that and I feel it’s my right to get to know a person before considering marrying him.
So in short, I don’t agree with Rayyanne’s “no dating” policy, and I definately don’t agree with the way she dealt with it, and I hate pamphlets, I’d rather talk about Islam face to face.
March 9, 2007 at 8:48 am
I liked Yassir in this episode. He is funny in the other episodes, in a static way. How he balances his work, his faith and his family is the constant source of humor from him.
For me, he started to show some backbone that I thought was missing from his character. How he reacted to Baber’s “emergency” declaration and Rayyan’s dating situation endeared him to me. Clearly, he has his family’s best interest at heart, above his work, and maybe it is his family that is the root of his devotion to money-making. Yay Yassir!
March 9, 2007 at 8:50 am
Wow, what an interesting discussion. I’m learning a lot.
A note to Ali: I think Yassir’s reaction to Rayan dating had nothing to do with being Muslim, and everything to do with being a father who never had any competition for his daughter’s affection before. All the stuff about Jeff being non-Muslim gave him an excuse to dislike the man. I’ve seen this before among my peers — some guys who were completely liberal and, frankly, horndogs in their own youth become very protective and conservative when it’s their little girl at stake — even when their little girl is old enough to be a mom.
To answer the question immediately above: Yes, the Amish do not use computers, television, motorized vehicles, electricity, or any kind of technology that post-dates 1800 or so. Nor do they accept “charity” from the government in the form of social security. Although my family is Amish on my father’s side, I myself was not raised Amish. For those who don’t know, the Amish are the most conservative of the Mennonite people, who are an offshoot of Christianity. Most Mennonites have adopted technology and live in the modern world in that sense. The Amish believe in simple living, and “demut” (humility). They don’t even wear buttons, which are considered too flashy. I probably have too much pride to be good Amish, but I am Amish enough, however, to be a pacifist.
(To be completely accurate, I should state that there are “new-order” Amish who do adopt some technology, for example, driving black cars. They paint the chrome black so it won’t look too flashy.)
This may interest some: Amish women keep their heads covered in public. Modest dress is encouraged. Men and women are separated during prayer. Sound familiar?
March 9, 2007 at 9:20 am
Peace with you all / Salam,
I don’t know how this topic has gotten so far from just a discussion of the show & its applicability to Muslim/Non-Musliom’s lives, to a debate about wife-beating. As muslims, we know that wives are NOT allowed to be beaten. We KNOW that our messenger, the prophet sent to teach this religion never hurt a woman. We also know that some people will bring this up just to hijack the conversation. So please, just ignore these people and let the oprignial conversation resume.
About the show, it is by far my favorite one so far. Usually, the episodes carry much caricature, but this one did not. It dealt with the topic delicately and with alot of nuance. You just have to think about it, or watch it twice.
First of all, only Ammar called Jeff “shallow”, not the other characters. He also made fun of his name, all because of his jealousy. That’s obvious. It also shows in his interaction with Jeff. There’s also the fact that Jeff is physically intimidating for both Ammar and Yasir.
Baber is labelled an extremist, but upon closer inspection, he IS the character that is changing and evolving the most. He accepts that his daughter not wear the scarf, he doesn’t oppose her choice of music (episode with the convert), and he IS improving. Fatima is also improving. Yasir and Sara however, are just as bad as ever if not worse.
Ammar, he reverend and Rayyan are unchanged, not good/bad, just as they were initially. We are getting to know them better with time I guess.
And for those who accuse the Rayyan of not being graceful…the show lasts 20 minutes and they did a great job with the time given so get over it. You can imagnie that she calls the guy up and apologizes. Or not. What the episode is about is her struggle in ths environment, something that is dealt with appropriately I find.
peace out
March 9, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Get over it? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Get over THAT.
I found that the episode bothered me a bit and I haven’t time to watch things 2 or 3 times to really “get it” and I have talked to other people (non-Muslims) who were of the same opinion.
This show has a lot of potential but I think that they need to be sharper on the writing.
March 9, 2007 at 2:04 pm
The one thing I was objecting to is calling baber extremist. He might be extremist in his views, but also he is the only character in this sitcom which has a beard and a kufi(cap). Is the director trying to potray that people with beard and kufi are extremist?
if not, how about showing a bearded muslim without extermisit views as well!!!!!!!
March 9, 2007 at 4:16 pm
LoOoOoL woooow some of the things I read are funny but Zaraf,,,,tabarakAllah for your efforts of portraying the truth of Islam. There have been many deviations of the straight path of following the Qu’ran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed (saws). About having education in Islam? Kind of reminded me of this girl who told me she had extensive knowledge about Islam, had a major in Islamic studies but at the same time she was asking me, “What Madhab did you get married in?” I told her I got married according to Sunnah but she kept repeating, “You had to have gotten married according to a Madhab. I have a Major in Islamic studies, so I know what I am talking about (etc etc).” LoL I just kept laughing and said ooookay as you like…In regards to giving religious advice, BRiNg eViDeNcE! Qu’ran or Authentic Hadiths. Zaraf you did a good job bringing up that verse from Chapter of the Women, that even slipped my mind. Men are the protectors of women and charged with our care, because they are physically stronger than us and women are more easily affected with emotions. Ned, quit trying to cause trouble with your weird videos. Anyways I just watched this episode and was AS USUAL not surprised by the way things went. Rayyan should have explained to Jeff about WHY women dont go out with men, instead of just saying, “Its Islam.” Okaaaay…AND? LoL oh well. Also, someone else mentioned Baber being portrayed as an extremist because he has a beard and kufi. I agree with you. Whats the point? Just because Baber follows the Sunnah of keeping a beard and wears a Islamic cap, he is labeled as an EXTREMIST? LoL SubhanAllah. My husband has a beard and wears his Islamic cap, maybe he is a crazy religious fanatic? Nope. Overall, this episode about Rayyan accepting a date with a NON-MUSLIM is ridiculous BUT I did laugh at some parts involving Baber.
March 9, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Here’s some good advice: you all need to stop your conjecturing. Unless you are a religious scholar or have engaged in some formal study of Islam, please do not interpret Quranic verses or pass judgment on issues that you really know nothing about. Being a Muslim does not make you an authority on Islam, and providing religious conclusions when you are not qualified to do so will only do a disservice to the religion. If someone is truly interested in learning about the issue of dating in Islam, or anything else about the religion for that matter, there is a vast collection of books and academic material available by knowledgable scholars who truly understand the content and spirit of Islam–consult these sources if you want real information instead of these dime-a-dozen charlatans.
March 9, 2007 at 5:46 pm
LoL who is the charlatan? Does having studied in Saudi Arabia make you a Sheikh OR someone who knows about Islam?? With knoweledge in Osool-al-Fiqh or Shari’ah?? Whats IS a charlatan? Isnt that a French word…well said Canadian Muslimah
And your right, we should stop the conjecturing and try to stick to the main topic of this discussin, which is Little Mosque’s episodes.
Salaam alaikum
March 9, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Mohd,
The main rule is not to have a sexual relationship before marriage, this is something taught in all religions, not only Islam.
Not ALL religions have prescriptions against pre- and non-marital sex. There are a lot more religions than the big five (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism), so that’s a huge generalization. The Buddha, for example, never said anything about premarital sex within a committed relationship, and traditions vary according to the branch of Buddhism. Neopaganism and Wicca don’t prohibit nonmarital sex, although it also discourages casual/non-meaningful sex (and yes, they’re modern religions, but they’re still religions). Historically, many other religions have also allowed pre/nonmarital sex.
Aalia Canadian,
I (and many other people) would disagree that men “don’t let emotions sway their thinking” and women do. In fact, sociological studies suggest that in general, people are much worse than we think we are at separating emotions from logic, even when it comes to things like deciding what brand of car to buy (which is of course why car ads focus on how “cool” and “fun” the car is, and how awesome it’ll be to drive much more often than they focus on fuel efficiency and safety ratings). We are not robots, and I, for one, am glad; people who could truly make decisions without emotion would frighten me. It’s much healthier and more human to make decisions by balancing emotion and logic.
And women are just as capable of that as men.
March 9, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Hey Mel
No offense but I dont care what sociological or scientific studies prove, I only go by what the Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths say. Women are not as physically strong as men (unless the man is super skinny and compared to a musculur woman). Women are more emotional than men thats why we cry and men dont cry very often, even when they are really sad. I never seen my dad cry, but I have seen my mom cry. Some men are more emotional than others, but in the end the Qu’ran says that men were put in charge to take care of the women. Before I came to Islam, most of my friends were guys becuz girls gossip and let stupid things get in the way, such as boyfriends and other materialistic matters. But not obviously since I am Muslim, my only friends are girls. LoL I only have a few friends but they are really cool and arent emotional. One is kinda crazy but she is cool anyways 
Btw in Islam there is NO PRE-MARITAL RELATIONS. This is to prevent children from being born without a father, and other gross things that are so rampant in the Western society.
March 10, 2007 at 4:06 am
About the wife beating part, this is a way to deal with wives who have done a nusyuz. A nusyuz is an action when a wife shows disobedience to her husband without any reasonable reasons according to a ’syarak’ law (not syariah, that’s different). Please take note I am taking these from a Malay book so the translation could be bad to awful. Sorry.
The wife become hostile towards her husband because
1: She is not educated or lacks moral and Islamic teachings.
2: Her misinterpretation of her duty in a household
3: The wife that thinks she is the most important person without consenting the needs of her husband
4: Influenced by negative influences such as….. get ready….. the MEDIA!!! that often show the freedom of women in the modern world.
If she commits this, she will be given these punishments according to this order.
1 - Given advice by the husband
2 - Separate the place of sleep
3 - Ugh….. wife beating.
Wife beating is not the first step but the last measure that your wife would not act up against you. Yes, I believe in human rights and the universal suffrage of women but you must remember, this was dictated by Muhammad SAW about 1400 years ago.
Certainly, in modern times, this is certainly not recommended and now, many opt for the talak (divorce) or khuluk (a man’s proposition to a woman if he refuses to divorce her in a form of a material items such as money, houses, gold, etc.) or even the fasakh (annulment which the man has not fulfilled when he performed the nikah). According to Muhammad SAW, he does not encourage divorce because marriage is to make both man and woman happy forever till they are apart.
The Quran have many meanings and interpretations. This show has opened up much dialog among Muslim and non-Muslims alike. One’s general opinions is the different from the next. The wife beating agenda differs from a person who is secular and a devout Muslims. Who are we to argue as Allah SWT only knows what right is right.
Oh, the dating thing as well. I am going to mention in my blog (some of my materials are things that I might use at the comedy clubs… yeah, I am a stand up comedian…. an aspiring one and these are very offensive for anyone to read, so a word of caution). I will try to mention the thing as a whole in it…. as soon I can get these pretzel nuggets to open up.
March 10, 2007 at 3:54 pm
1.) Father’s and daughters.
Yassir is not at all religious: “Why would any normal person want to learn about Islam.” Yet he gets bent out of shape when he hears his daughter was holding hands.Why?
Like someone said before, every man is like this with his daughter. Even (perhaps, especially?) if he was a womanizer when he was younger. This Jeff guy was holding hands with his little girl!
2.) Social pressure. Sex outside of marriage is equally forbidden to men and women in Islam, yet all too often its women more than men whom society puts over the coals for not appearing chaste. Why?
This is so typical of all societies. God knows why… Even here in America, the football player who sleeps around is a “stud” but the girls he sleeps with are “sluts.” It’s like the guys are excused b/c they are “expected” to sow their wild oats. It’ so common that a Muslim guy will move to N. America, go crazy dating all these girls, and then when he wants to get married, he goes back home to marry a virgin who is “good enough” for him. I knew a lady from Iran who lived in America by herself and didn’t date or anything, but she said Iranian men looked down on her b/c they felt she was “tainted” by living in the west. What a double standard!
3.) Gossiping among the choir.
What role does gossip play in your religious community?
In Islam, as we all know, gossip is considered one of the WORST sins. Unfortunately, it’s a sin that is usually ignored. I’ve seen people’s lives torn apart from gossip.
4.) Virgins for life.
Why was Rayyan’s mother so eager to see her dating?
Rayyan’s mom dated Rayyan’s dad, and is your typical Western-raised person. Her Islam is probably sincere, but honestly she probably converted just for her husband. She obviously thinks Rayyan works too hard and doesn’t have enough of a social life, and probably wouldn’t mind either way if Rayyan wasn’t a very strict Muslim. Since she isn’t one herself. Btw… why is this question called “Virgins for life?”
5.) Mixed messages.
Rayyan says she hurt Jeff. She used him to rebel. Babur, to put his foot down with his daughter. The Imam, as an object of his jealousy. Yet everyone claimed to be acting in the name of Islam. Feelings were hurt. What image do we give about our religion when we act from mixed intentions.
That we are human and very, very flawed. I actually like that about this program. It shows that we (Muslims) are just regular people who are human, and if we screw up it’s because we are like everyone else; it’s not because if Islam specifically.
6.) It’s all in the pamphlet.
Jeff also used Islam to get to Rayyan. But what if he had been seriously interested in learning about the religion? How should one respond to questions about your faith?
Well.. I think she did the right thing in the beginning by giving Jeff a pamphlet and directing him to the mosque, since he was obviously hitting on her. If he was really interested, he would find a way to learn about Islam. She could also recommend some books he could read if she felt he were really interested. Or given him a Qur’an.
7.) Opposite Reactions.
Babur’s daughter says she hates him when he plans to send her to boarding school. Sometimes when parents to raise their children strictly is backfires and causes them to run the other way. What is a parent to do?
Good question. Something I worry about when I have kids. But I don’t think you can just yell at them and expect them to respect you. Shouldn’t respect be earned?
8.) Flames of Love.
Imam Ammar usually takes a level, moderate approach everything; however, he goes CRAZY when when it seems Rayyan is interested in another man. Does anyone know how we can get love’s irresistible power to work for us rather than against us as people of faith?
That was soooo hilarious… I don’t know the answer to this question, but I TOTALLY want them to hook up (and by hook up, I mean get engaged).
9.) Put some color in it.
Babur’s daughter is afraid of becoming an “Islamabot.”
Babur says that God is his witness that he has “no imagination.” How do we instill our practice of religion with the creative vitality it needs to prosper?
Oh, man… I think it’s important to realize that you can be a normal person (like Rayyan is) and still be a good Muslim. You don’t have to ship your kids off to a far away place. Also, when it comes to kids, you should probably emphasize what you LOVE about it, instead of just saying, “This is forbidden! That is forbidden!” etc, etc…
March 10, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Wife beating rules by Wahhabi Muslims as in that video by Ned from Bahrain.
Wahhabism brought to you by Brits and recently CIA money who also brought you Saudi system & the Taliban.
Get the facts.
Islam (Qur’an & Hadith) does now allow beating of any human including your wife.
March 11, 2007 at 3:27 am
Hi,
I am a firefighter in North America and I have a question for an upcoming exam.
I go into a burning house and I see a woman in Muslim dress lying unconscious on the floor.
I don’t know where her husband, or father or husband is.
What should I do?
March 11, 2007 at 3:33 am
I would think you should leave that room.
Sure, she would die and you could be charged with murder but better a murderer than to be culturally insensitive.
March 11, 2007 at 9:16 am
I think its a great show. At the end of the day its not what she should or shouldn’t have done, the point of the show is that a muslim woman living in western culture might actually have been in the situation. Its also a comedy, not realism.
Btw - all the wannabe scholars unless you have studied the hadith you might want to think before you start issuing fatwahs. Not all hadith (including Bukari hadith) are classed as authentic and have different classifications by the scholars, there is a long history of study. Unless you did more than read a few books on the subject you’re better to keep silent.
March 11, 2007 at 10:48 am
That would be a no win situation for you firefighter for it seems that whatever you would do in that situation you lose.
Perhaps get into another line of work.
March 11, 2007 at 10:50 am
I don’t get how Rayyan can be a doctor.
Well at least a doctor with Male patients.
She should only treat females.
March 11, 2007 at 10:54 am
John, why make up such lies about yourself?
Your family is Amish?
Hello, you are typing this on the Internet.
Get a clue John. If you are going to make up lies about yourself don’t make it so obvious.
March 11, 2007 at 11:41 am
Salam to Everyone,
This is my first comment in awhile….reading through so many of them I don’t know whether to laugh or cry….
Ya’all are either pulling everyone’s legs or just plain obnoxious on purpose???
I guess this is the way it goes with blogs such as these, when the subject is Islam/Muslims??
There are bound to be some who ‘preach’ to high heavens and those who ‘insult’ at any cost…little room for respect….
Where are the monitors of this blog anyway???
I would like to assume that Zaraf and Aalia Canadian mean well (good intentions) but really, it would be nice if you two would give it a rest.
Turn off your computer, pray, make sujuud, or whatever comforts your soul, re-read the essay, “Convertitis,” spend time outdoors….many of the Prophets did the same.
And Steve, what a character you are….needling everyone at any expense…
It would be nice if ya’all got offa your high horses…get back down to earth. We’re all made from the same clay…look for the commonalties in one another.
Firefighter: Well of course you save the Muslim woman. When you start reading looney stuff about Islam and Muslims throw it out.
If it contradicts the Qur’an or authentic hadith it is contrary to the religion. Could be a cultural thang, passed down for centuries.
Look at Pakistan/India, for example. Centuries ago they were all Hindus. Centuries later many are Muslims with some practices that date back to Hindu customs. (example; a (Muslim) man cannot hear the voice of a widow (Muslim) woman, baloney)
Go with your God given (or whatever your beliefs are, no disrespect) common sense.
This old, blue eyed, gray haired hijabi, American convert really meant no bad ill towards anyone posting comments in this blog from my comments above….
I guess what I want to say is….my generation is dying off…we did this and that for our Muslim communities…we also had good intentions….many times successful, Alhumdulillah, (in bridging communications between peoples of all backgrounds and other areas of our communities)…
I hope you learn from your experiences and your elders….history is there as a God given gift…don’t take if for granted.
This IS a good show. It will have story lines that will be controversial. It will have episodes we dislike more than others. But, this merits repeating, it is a start.
Keep up the good work LMOTP.
Salam to All -
March 11, 2007 at 11:44 am
firefighter,
i’m a muslim paramedic..i’m no muslim scholar but maybe i’ll just share something with you..Muslims believe in amal maaruf, nahi mungkar which means do good and forbid evil..saving lives is doing something good..i guess you should save her rather than leave her to die..
as a firefighter you’re suppose to save lives and properties..so why dont you just do your job first and deal with the ramifications later? in our line of werk, hesitation means difference in life and death
wassalam
March 11, 2007 at 1:16 pm
What are some of you even thinking when answering Firefighter? Of course he should save the woman! And if her husband has a problem with him touching her to save her life, and would rather that she had died, she should leave the jerk for sure!
Back to the episode. I agree mostly with what Ali has posted. Yes, she was wrong to get involved with Jeff, but she owes him an explanation. If he was at all interested in Islam, the whole community has probably scared him away, and now he must have a pretty negative impression of Islam.
And the gossiping was wrong. Everyone knows that Rayyan is a doctor, and Babur should have seen that the hand she was “holding” had a bandage on it. We are supposed to make excuses for fellow Muslims and assume the best, not assume the worst and tell everyone in the community what you assume.
It was pretty funny watching Amar squirm, although he did act like a big baby. I guess he got pretty carried away.
I hope we see Babur’s relationship with his daughter improve. Telling parents that you hate them is no joke.
I love Rayyan’s clothes!
March 11, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Steve and Firefighter,
y would u not save the women ? the Prophet clearly said. “actions are to be judged by intentions” and your intention is to save the women not to hold her inorder to satisfy your sexual desries. I find it interesting how the lack of knowledge and incorrect interpretation can lead people to jump to such awkward conclusions.
March 11, 2007 at 2:05 pm
” I dont care what sociological or scientific studies prove, I only go by what the Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths say.”
Now I understand Baber’s daughter’s reference to being turned into an Islamobot. Thanks.
March 11, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Mary, please read my second post. I never claimed to be Amish, I said that my family was Amish. My father married a Catholic, and I was raised that way, but I have since walked away from that church as well. I work as a computer programmer. I certainly wouldn’t be of much use on a farm, or building furniture. Rather than calling me a liar in a public forum, I wish you had asked me to clarify or explain myself further.
peace
March 11, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Paramedic, you’re right that common sense should prevail, and I hope that in many places it does. But it sometimes it doesn’t:
Follow the link below where it talks about fifteen Saudi girls who died in a school fire because the religious police wouldn’t let the girls out, or let the firemen approach them, as the girls weren’t wearing their headscarves.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm
At least the firemen wanted to try and rescue the girls.
March 11, 2007 at 2:22 pm
John,
Yes, you did answer that earlier, and when I asked it I hope you took it in the “curiousity fashion and not as a “who’s this guy trying to kid” fashion.
Another quesiton, if your father married a Catholic, how was it treated by his family? How do the Amish treat going against the faith, if that’s at all what happened?
CC
March 11, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Salam to Everyone,
A. Viewer:
” I dont care what sociological or scientific studies prove, I only go by what the Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths say.”
Now I understand Baber’s daughter’s reference to being turned into an Islamobot. Thanks.”
I see your point and agree. Many Muslims believe the same, that we are living in a time of dark ages for Muslims, not Islam, but Muslims, how they interpret, practice their religion, etc.
There are quite a lot of science references, for example, in Qur’an and Hadith…
And also, there are plenty of other resources to read from:
“The Bible, The Qur’an and Science,”
by Dr. Maurice Bucaille.
“Quranic Sciences,”
by Afzalur Rahman.
Aalia Canadian possibly submitted her comment in a rush or is mis-read?
As ‘muscialchef’ noted; make 70 excuses for your brother or sister…I agree.
We humans love to judge but don’t love to be judged…
March 11, 2007 at 3:16 pm
oops, and -
Salam to All -
March 11, 2007 at 3:57 pm
My father marrying a Catholic wasn’t a big issue in his family. Although my father and his parents are long dead, I got the impression that they were all moving away from orthodoxy long before Mom came along.
I’ll try to answer the more general question, though: One of the reasons that the Amish (and other Anabaptists) broke away from the Catholic Church is because of their belief that children should not be baptised. They believe that you have to grow up and be old enough to understand your choices, and then you can choose to be baptised and join the church. Some communities even send teenage boys out into the larger world for a while to experience it first, before they are expected to come back and settle in. And some choose not to join the church.
The original Amish practiced shunning — if you didn’t join, then no one from the community could talk to you or do business with you anymore. But this has largely fallen by the wayside in the last century. It’s common in Mennonite communities for family and social ties to be maintained between people of various degrees of conservatism. I have one cousin who teaches school in regular schools, and another who stays on the farm and dresses in traditional manner, and they socialize together without friction.
Mennonites don’t try to tell anyone else how to live — that would be putting yourself ahead of anyone else, which is a no-no. (This is why the Amish shun technology — because new gadgets can make people think themselves better than their neighbours, or make them wealthy be being able to work more land, or worse yet, make the community dependent on outside providers, when they prefer to remain independent. But if you’re an old Amish farmer, say, with terrible arthritis, then it is very likely you would be encouraged by your kin to buy and use a conventional tractor. There’s no pride in that.)
But, I shouldn’t get too far off the topic of this web site, so I’ll ask another question about Islam. I have heard it said that while it is forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man, the reverse is not true. Did I understand this correctly? If so, I’d like to hear more about how that works — is the non-Muslim wife expected/allowed to continue in her own religious practices? Are there limits on what religions she can belong to? Would Fatima be less upset about her son studying with a ‘white’ girl than Babar was about his daughter’s study buddy?
March 11, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Thanks John for the explanation. Based on some things you said in prior postings there appeared to be several similarities in both Islamic and Amish ritual and culture. That was why I was interested in how the Amish treated those who broke away.
March 11, 2007 at 11:46 pm
i think this site banned my IP address???
March 11, 2007 at 11:50 pm
I knew it LoL because I cant leave messages from my laptop in the other room so I tried my computer and it works…omg…well here was the message i was trying to put earlier but this stupid page kept coming up telling me “you have already typed a comment” or something…
March 11, 2007 at 11:58 pm
I’ve been having similar problems. Here’s the post I made with regard to Mary and John’s comments.
March 12, 2007 at 12:26 am
I wish more people would answer that Firefighter’s question.
If he goes into a burning building and sees a Muslim woman laying unconscious what should he do?
I guess he could back out of the building and see if he can find the woman’s father, husband, or brother to help him, but what if they aren’t around?
I guess a female firefighter might be a good answer but what if that isn’t an option?
Since in today’s society it is worst to be culturally insensitive than it is to kill people, I would think that leaving her would be the best answer. (Not best in meaning a good answer but best meaning the lesser of two evils).
And for the person above who said that any woman who has a husband who would be upset about a fireman who had to carry her out (which would mean he touched her) and “Allah Forbid” perhaps even have to give her CPR to save her life that she should leave that guy, well, guess what - SHE CAN’T! Divorce is forbidden in Islam so she is stuck with him.
March 12, 2007 at 12:53 am
Yeah, posting wasn’t working for me either
lol
March 12, 2007 at 12:57 am
Something that many people mistake about Islam is that it is just a whole bunch of hard, and rigid rules that have no exceptions. The fact is, that these rules are for our well being, and dire need overcomes all rules. If you are starving to death, and there is nothing else to eat except pork, then there is no sin upon you for doing so. However, God knows your intentions, and if you do it simply because you have no other choice, then He will not hold you accountable for it.
This is what the example our fireman friend mentioned. The Muslim woman laying unconscious in a burning building….there is nothing wrong with picking her up and rushing her out. Say even if she was laying there naked. The fireman’s intentions aren’t to have sex with her but instead to save her life, and if he can safely and quickly grab something to cover her (like a sheet nearby), he should do so, but the priority is in saving her from that building. Don’t try to give Islam this image of “You dishonored me, so now I’m going to kill you.”. Everything has its own circumstances, and God looks at everything individually and judges accordingly. But that being said, there are a general set of rules to be followed, and again, God knows our intentions, so He knows what you were thinking when you did something.
John, you are asking about this whole “Muslim man can marry non-Muslims, but a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man.” and if this is true or not, and an explanation.
Yes, this is true. A Muslim man is allowed to marry a person from the “People of the Book”, meaning, Jews or Christians. A Muslim woman is only allowed to marry a Muslim man.
Now, people might say “This is discrimination”, but you have to think about this for a minute. One of the factors involved is that “What will the children grow up believing?”. If the husband is a Muslim, and the wife is a Jew or Christian, then chances are the children will follow Islam. However, there is no guarantee in this, so even for Muslim men, marrying outside of Islam is discouraged. Muslim men cannot marry outside of the People of the Book. Meaning, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans, Buddhists, etc.
If the wife is Muslim, and the husband is non-Muslim, then the husband might pressure the wife into leaving her faith, and the children will most likely not grow up as Muslims.
God gave us practical solutions for everything. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but the rules are for the majority. In most cases, the husband has more authority/power than the wife. Regardless of culture/time. You can try to argue this, but don’t bother, cause its true. This doesn’t mean the husband is superior, but rather, he has more responsibility.
In any case, Muslims (both male and female) are encouraged to marry only Muslims. And unless they have really very little care for their faith, or their afterlife, then they will stick to marrying Muslims.
Even the best non-Muslim will still be leading you towards Hellfire with their beliefs.
Also, the issue wasn’t that Babar’s daughter was studying with a non-Muslim, but the fact that he was a male. Even if it had been a Muslim male, that would have been inappropriate. And for Fatima, it would be the same if it were a Muslim girl as opposed to a non-Muslim girl. The point is that he/she is alone with the boy/girl.
There is more to this life than just trying to maximize your own personal happiness.
Luke, where did you hear that divorce is forbidden in Islam? It certainly isn’t encouraged, but every now and then, circumstances will arise where divorce is necessary.
March 12, 2007 at 5:40 am
Is it any contact that forbidden or is it skin to skin contact? Fatima gave Fred that jolt to his back by putting potholders on her hands and then grabbing him on his chest.
I’ve been in stores where the women at the cash registers appeared to be Muslims, and when giving me my change, their fingertips would touch my palm, however so slightly. There are probably some Muslims who would find even that level of contact to be inappropriate, while others would take a practicality standpoint, and even others might think that there’s nothing wrong with it.
If anything, this forum has been very good for showing that Muslims are human beings with the same flaws and frailties as everyone else.
March 12, 2007 at 9:55 am
Hello and Salaams to all
>
There is no question if its a case of life endangerment, then you act to save the person.
There are thousands of Muslim doctors, nurses, paramedics, physiotherapists in the US and Canada. They all treat their patients of both sexes.
Rayyan even portrayed that very clearly in this episode when she bandaged the fireman’s hand in her clinic and then also examined his ankle.
There are thousands more in many professions which may require physical contact and they do it, even in Muslim countries (with the exception of Saudi and Afghanistan).
Islam does NOT say there should be no contact between the sexes at all but that it be limited to that which is necessary, so a handshake would be inappropriate but treating a sick person/rescuing someone is permitted. Indeed, not to do so would be a HUGE sin.
When there were battles in the days of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him), Muslim women could be found on the battlefield tending to the wounded and nursing them thereafter.
Accidentally touching is also not a sin. Islam does not envision a society of “apartheid of the sexes” and the model portrayed in Saudi and Afghanistan is totally wrong.
>
Whoever has suggested this, I hope they were being sarcastic. If they really think cultural insensitivity is a greater evil than leaving someone to die, they need their head examined.
If anyone did this for real, it would not only be unIslamic but inhumane and I would hope they would be charged for murder and if they did try to use a defense of “cultural sensitivity”, it would be thrown out of court.
March 12, 2007 at 9:57 am
Regarding the firefighter’s question:
There is no question if its a case of life endangerment, then you act to save the person.
There are thousands of Muslim doctors, nurses, paramedics, physiotherapists in the US and Canada. They all treat their patients of both sexes.
Rayyan even portrayed that very clearly in this episode when she bandaged the fireman’s hand in her clinic and then also examined his ankle.
There are thousands more in many professions which may require physical contact and they do it, even in Muslim countries (with the exception of Saudi and Afghanistan).
Islam does NOT say there should be no contact between the sexes at all but that it be limited to that which is necessary, so a handshake would be inappropriate but treating a sick person/rescuing someone is permitted. Indeed, not to do so would be a HUGE sin.
When there were battles in the days of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him), Muslim women could be found on the battlefield tending to the wounded and nursing them thereafter.
Accidentally touching is also not a sin. Islam does not envision a society of “apartheid of the sexes” and the model portrayed in Saudi and Afghanistan is totally wrong.
Regarding this comment:
Since in today’s society it is worst to be culturally insensitive than it is to kill people, I would think that leaving her would be the best answer. (Not best in meaning a good answer but best meaning the lesser of two evils).
Whoever has suggested this, I hope they were being sarcastic. If they really think cultural insensitivity is a greater evil than leaving someone to die, they need their head examined.
If anyone did this for real, it would not only be unIslamic but inhumane and I would hope they would be charged for murder and if they did try to use a defense of “cultural sensitivity”, it would be thrown out of court.
March 12, 2007 at 10:06 am
“If they think cultural insensitivity is a greater evil than leaving someone to die, they need their head examined.”
Society needs its head examined.
But that is why the statement “liberalism is a mental disorder” is so accurate.
But unfortunately it is true. A guy can shoot up a mall full of innocent shoppers and little outrage is expressed.
But if someone dare uses the “N word” or any word that might be unrelated but sound like it or if some lady calls someone a Faggot (I refuse to make that word a banned word) all heck breaks loose.
That is where we are at in this time in society. Saying something insensitive produces far more outrage than out and out murder.
March 12, 2007 at 10:36 am
Salam to Everyone,
AaliaCanadian:
“well here was the message i was trying to put earlier but this stupid page kept coming up telling me “you have already typed a comment” or something…”
Something must be up with this blog?? Your message never materialized outside of what is above…
Someone else posted a link, either to this topic or another, and it never came up as well. Something about wife beating??
Maybe this ole gray mare is just a computer dummy and is missing a link or two to read these comments??
JDsg: Thank you, your link did go through.
Monitors: What’s up?? Is there a problem here or is it just me and my lack of computer skills?
Luke: You’re hilarious. Divorce forbidden in Islam:)?? That’s too funny.
Please give specifics for references to this understanding of yours.
Qur’an, chapter 4;verse 128: “If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them it they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves;…”
There are several more verses pertaining to divorce if you or anyone else is interested.
There are tons of divorced Muslims throughout the world.
BTW: It was against the LAW in Ireland for women to obtain a divorce for YEARS.
It wasn’t until 27th February 1997 that divorce has been lawful in Ireland.
Injustices to humankind happen all over the world, they come in all shapes and sizes, colors, religions (taken out of context) etc.
Humankind can be so unkind.
It is up to us as individuals, to choose whether we will be ‘just’ to one another or not.
Governments/dictators, bad/nasty/evil people who claim to be this or that, etc. have screwed it up for so long now we’ve become desensitized to human suffering and injustices.
The pork (ok to eat) reference:
Qur’an; chapter 2; verse 173:
“He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, adn the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name has been invoked besides that of God; But if one is forced by necessity, nor trangressing due limits, Then is he guiltless. For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
So, as Zaraf pointed out, pork is allowed for Muslims to eat in times of desperation, i.e.; famines, wars, etc. It is not an easy thing for Muslims to do, but is permissible.
The explanation behind this is that God gave us life, we are here to live it, if we are jeopardized in any way, (famine for example) we are encouraged to utilize what means are available to us (eating pork) to survive.
This stands for other living creatures, human, animals, plants, our planet…as well.
Muslims believe they are caretakers (as do many other religions/peoples) of God’s Blessings of life on earth.
(Qur’an: chapter 2; verse 30: “Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.”…”
(Take care of your family, your neighbor, ‘mother’ earth…
If a male firefighter (Muslim or not) needs to save a Muslim woman from a fire, or any other tragedy (car accident/paramedic’s help) it is a must.
Qur’an: chapter 5; verse 32: “… And if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people…”
Therefore, to save a life of one human being is akin to saving all of mankind, no matter what religious beliefs/non beliefs the person holds.
Common sense prevails, Alhumdulillah.
Salam to All -
March 12, 2007 at 10:44 am
I’m glad you’re choosing to ignore societal outrage. That’s how we make progress. Like all the people in our history who ignored the vast societal outrage over statements like “I want to marry this person of a different race” or “I want to vote, even though I am a woman” or “I don’t think slavery is right”. And boy, did those statements cause outrage at the time!
More on topic, I have a non-religious friend who was recently doing business with a local Muslim businesswoman. After their transaction was completed, he automatically reached out to shake her hand, forgetting the no-contact rule. She clasped her hands together, smiled sweetly and said “Sorry, I cannot.” He said “Oops, I forgot”, and they concluded their business. No one was insulted or upset, and they continue to have a good business relationship. (Although my friend says that not shaking hands on a deal feels awkward to him.)
I think these forums, as well, demonstrate that it is possible to have informative exchanges on even sensitive topics, if people don’t come in with preconceived notions or a chip on their shoulder, and are willing to not take insult where no insult is intended.
I’m not a Muslim, but I like the Muslim greetings I hear on Little Mosque. The word “Salaam” means peace, does it not? How does the greeting actually translate? “Peace” seems a good way to say hello and goodbye.
March 12, 2007 at 11:06 am
John:
The full greeting is “salam alaikum,” which means “peace be upon you.” The reply is “walaikum salam” which means “and upon you be peace.” You’re right, it is an excellent way to say hello and goodbye because it is both a greeting and a prayer for the person.
March 12, 2007 at 11:38 am
Yes, the salam is a beautiful greeting, which is why it bothers me that we rarely hear the cast saying it on this show. More often than not, I’ve heard people not greeting the person at all, or saying something like “Hey” or “Hi”. The salam is a far superior greeting to “Hey”.
One interesting thing I often find is that non-Muslims perceive Islam to be a religion composed of “Don’t do this, and don’t do that”. Basically, everything is prohibited, except for these few allowances. However, this is quite untrue.
Islam is more of a “everything is permissible, except for these things which are harmful.”
Keep in mind, humans have very limited vision. We cannot see beyond our eyes. So for us to say that something that has been made forbidden doesn’t make sense and therefore shouldn’t be followed is quite a shallow way of thinking.
Imagine you have a young son. You tell your son “Do not put your fingers in the electrical outlet.” Now, do you expect the child to fully understand and comprehend the reasoning behind these instructions before he obeys them? Or do you expect him to obey you regardless of the level of understanding? It doesn’t matter if the young boy understands the situation or not, but if he puts his fingers in the socket, he will be harmed.
So in the same sense, God has given us certain instructions. We can speculate on why we think God has told us things, but we can never say for certain, unless we’re directly told. You’ll hear Muslims saying “Pork is forbidden because the pig is a dirty animal.” Sure, that ‘could’ be true, but maybe there is another reason. There could be many other reasons which God alone knows, and so he gives us instructions to avoid the harm.
This whole issue about contact between the sexes is one that is very lax in the West, but Muslims take it very seriously. Why? Because we are told by God that this is something to watch out for. Anything that leads to greater sins should also be avoided. Holding hands with a girl (whom you are not married to), dating, kissing, etc may all seem harmless, but what is it leading towards? It eventually leads to the greater sins, such as adultery/fornication.
March 12, 2007 at 12:03 pm
I’d like to narrate to you all a very interesting story that illustrates this concept very well. It’s quite long, so please bear with me
This story comes from Jewish tradition, but is consistent with Islamic understandings as well.
There were two brothers who were going to be heading out to war, but they had an unmarried sister who would have been left behind alone (apparently their parents were deceased). So the two brothers though about who they could possibly leave their sister behind with, and they came up with the idea to leave her with the head rabbi.
So they went to the rabbi and asked him if he would take care of their sister while they were gone. The rabbi was reluctant to do so, saying that if they left her with him, it would entice him towards sin. They pleaded with the rabbi, and he finally agreed that the girl would stay in a small house next to the monastery. To avoid contact with her, the rabbi would leave food on the steps of the monastery, and the girl would come and get the food, and go back to her house.
Satan then whispered into the mind of the rabbi, “What are you doing? Leaving the food on the steps of the monastery? When she comes to retrieve the food, other men might see her!” The rabbi thought, “Ok, well I’ll leave the food on her doorstep then. No harm in that.” So he began to leave food on the doorstep of her house. After awhile doing that, Satan came and whispered to him, “When she opens the door and picks up the food, some men might still see her. You need to go and put the food in her house.” The rabbi was reluctant to do this, but then decided to do it, since the girl would be in the other room. After all, it made sense, right?
After doing that for awhile, Satan came and said “What kind of a man are you? She is here all alone, with no one to talk to, and you just silently leave the food and go away. At least say something to her before you leave.” The rabbi thought about this, and decided to talk to her from outside of her room. But since she was behind a closed door, he would have to yell, and she would yell back to him. “Satan then came to him and said, “You both are yelling, so why don’t you make it easy and go into her room and talk to her with ease?” This made sense, so the rabbi decided to do it.
Over some time, the rabbi began spending more and more time talking with her. A few words became a few minutes, which became a few hours. Before he even knew where he was, the rabbi had committed fornication with the girl. The girl then later told him that she was pregnant, and now the rabbi didn’t know what to do. When the baby was born, the rabbi was in an extreme sense of anxiety. Satan came to him and said “If the two brothers find out what you did, they are going to kill you. It is best to get rid of the evidence, so kill the baby.” The rabbi went and strangled the baby and killed it. Satan then came and said to him, “Do you think the girl will stay quiet about this to her brothers? She will tell them what happened and they will kill you!” The rabbi then went and killed the girl too, and buried both the girl and their dead baby in the room the girl was staying in.
When the brothers came back, the rabbi told them that their sister had become very ill in their absence and passed away. He then led the two brothers to a fake grave he had made and told them this was the grave of their sister. Being the rabbi, the brothers trusted his word, and went home.
During the night, Satan came to one of the brothers in his dream and said to him “Did you believe the rabbi in what he said about your sister? The truth is that he lay with your sister, and then murdered both the child and her. The proof of this is that the grave he showed you is empty, and the real grave is in the room the girl was staying in.” When the brother woke up, he mentioned the dream to the other brother, who replied that he had the exact same dream. Being suspicious of this, they went to check the grave of their sister. When they dug up the grave, they found it to be empty. They went to the room, and found both the body of their sister, and a small baby in her arms. Confirming what they had been told in their dreams. They had the rabbi arrested who confessed to the crime. They were leading him away towards the executioner, and Satan appeared in a physical form to the rabbi. Satan said to the rabbi “I was the one who led you with small steps to where you are now, and I am the only one who can help you now! So if you want my help, prostrate yourself to me!” Without thinking, the rabbi bowed down to Satan. Satan then laughed and said “Thank you very much.” and disappeared. The rabbi was then executed, dying having just bowed down to Satan.
If you think about this story, it is quite profound. If Satan had originally come to the rabbi and said “Bow down to me”, there is no way he would. But with small steps, Satan led the rabbi to his demise, and even dying as a Satan-worshiper.
Remember, Satan is patient, and leads people to destruction with baby steps. Be wary of those baby steps, for they lead to big steps.
March 12, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I appreciate the “Slippery Slope” argument, but I would like to think that it is a very long way from talking to a girl to having sex with her.
But it is your religion and I do respect it. I find it quite honourable that you would keep to your principles the way you do.
But please don’t expect me to live like that. I will respect your ways, but don’t expect me to change mine. I for one believe that I am very principled even though I have talked to women even women in bikins without even the thought of raping her or having sex with her coming to mind.
But then again, you look at what happens in today’s society and it is hard to argue about your ways. Sure I might be principled in this regard but unfortunately all to many are not. I might not practice your ways but I certainly understand the benefit of them.
March 12, 2007 at 1:19 pm
I guess it is all about where one draws the line. You would draw it further away than I would.
It is a tough call. I have to say though I don’t believe that rapes in Muslim countries are at an insignificant level. And then, even though the woman is the victim, the society then blame her for the sex even though it was forced upon her.
And even worst she is arrested and whipped to death or stoned or something like that even though she wasn’t responsible for what happen.
It is stuff like that that gives so many of us an “ugh” feeling when it comes to Islam.
March 12, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Divorce was unlawful in Ireland for both men and women, not just women.
March 12, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Isn’t it interesting that Jews use