Episode 8 – Playing with Fire

Synopsis: A local fireman proves too hot to handle when Rayyan considers dating. 

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Videos courtesty of mydien

What did you think of this episode? How does it compare to the previous episodes?

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380 Comments

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380 responses to “Episode 8 – Playing with Fire

  1. John

    I have a question for my Muslim brothers and sisters. Having seen this episode, I’m now really curious as to the details of the proper ways for young Muslim men and women to meet each other (and eventually marry). If the firefighter had been Muslim, could Rayanne have gone out with him? If so, who would be a suitable chaperone? Is it just enough that a third person is there? If not, how do you find a spouse?

    Especially, if you are living in a small town, where there are only a few people of your faith, what do you do?

    My family is Amish, so our traditions are very different. (You wouldn’t believe what was considered traditional on an Amish date.)

  2. Mohd

    John,
    It depends what version of Islam you wanna know about. There is no exact way in dating. The main rule is not to have a sexual relationship before marriage, this is something taught in all religions, not only Islam. Of course, Muslim women can not marry non-Muslims.

    Religions in general focus on the term ‘sex’. You feel like it’s the only thing in this universe, beside bringing tension between people of course.

    In Amish, the father paints the gate of his house with blue paint when he wanna marry his daughter, is that true?

    Cheers mate.

  3. Brad

    I found myself a bit put off by this episode. She never seemed to actually explain to Mr. Fireman why he couldn’t kiss her etc but simply kept repeating, “It’s Islam.” Is it not possible that a non-Muslim might be willing to follow the proper etiquette for courtship? How did her own Mother (apparently non-Muslim at some point in time) come to be with her father?

    I just wonder what sort of reaction there would be if a show like Corner Gas were to discourage a character from dating Muslim by ridiculing their names and saying that they were too “shallow”.

  4. Rayan

    I can understand, the way it was presented, that people would be turn off.

    The main matter is that dating between a Muslim and a non-Muslim is not encouraged. The show in fact, showed a far more tolerant view of it, than is convention. I think that if ‘Corner Gas’ showed Christians unwilling to marry Muslims in order to protect their tradition than I would have no issue. I suppose making fun of the name ‘Jeff’ is odd, and I would blame this on the Caucasian writer so of the show, as it is not common and not funny either.

    In ‘Traditional’ Islam, there is no dating. If you see a girl you like, or vice-versa you would approach them or their family, meet them a couple of times in the presence of another and determine whether you want to marry. There is no physical contact prior to marriage, and Islamically speaking there is no such thing as an engagement. Currently, Muslims are trying to adapt to their new home, Canada, and the result is many Muslims will meet another in a restaurant or other public place and then decide. Family approval is paramount, and the decision is made quickly. Also, Muslims now often get engaged and then meet often after that.

    If a non-Muslim and Muslim do come into contact and feel a strong attraction to one another, the non-Muslim should convert for it to be perfectly acceptable, the main intention behind this is to assure that the Children are raised Muslim.

  5. Mona

    I got the feeling that Amar wasn’t making fun of the name “Jeff” because it was odd but I think he was saying that ’cause he was jealous.

    I thought this episode was really interesting – what was damaging to Rayanne’s reputation (besides the fact that she considered going out with a non-Muslim) was the fact that the whole Muslim community was talking about it. I think the whole backbiting thing did more to damage people’s views of her than her own consideration of dating. But in the end, she was the only one who decided that she was in the wrong – no one else apologized for jumping to conclusions.

  6. Ned

    Here is a video about women in Islam.

  7. Aalia Canadian

    Asalaam alaikum

    Ned whats your point with that stupid video? Of course men are in charge of the women because they are stronger and dont let emotions sway their thinking. BTW that video is trying to increase hate and fear of Islam by showing images of things you have NO idea about. For example, the picture they show of the men wearing white shrouds with blood and holding swords? How do YOU know those werent Shi’a Muslims celebrating their holy day of Ashura? And that woman in the first image, where she is in the sand and the men have shovels? For all YOU know, it could’ve been an entirely different situation. It’s like, what if I made a movie on YouTube showing pictures of white men and women holding whips and chains to a audience of people from Tajikstan? I could easily tell them that this is what the men and women in the West do, they tie eachother up and hit eachother violently with whips. OF COURSE, I know that this is called S&M and SOME couple practice it. So just because you saw some pictures and videos CLAIMING to be how women are treated in Islam, go talk to an actual Muslim woman. I am a Canadian convert and I am almost 19, and I married a man from Arabia who is 27. Does he hit me and tell me all the time that HE is in charge? NO. In fact, he treats me waaaay better than any non-Muslim guy I have ever known before Islam. My husband treats me like a QUEEN. So my advice to you is quit allowing yourself to be fooled by the anti-Islamic propaganda. Here is a famous Hadith said by the Prophet Muhammed (SAWS), who NEVER raised his hand at any of his wives:
    “The best among you (the Muslims) are the ones best to their women (wives, mothers, daughters, sisters), and I am the best out of all of you.”
    This is in regards to how a woman is treated and honoured. Dont take the examples of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the tribes who practise weird cultural habits in Pakistan or the backwardness of Iran and apply it to ALL Muslims. Islam liberates the women by giving them more rights. I was born and raised in Canada all my life and to be accepted in this society you have to become a sex object to men by wearing nasty clothes and going out to parties where you risk being drugged by a stranger and then being raped. Hah! NO THANK-YOU! I will stick to my Islam and be kept safe by my husband, respected by my Muslim and non-Muslim friends and my modesty will be guarded with my Hijaab. Alhamdulillah!

    Salaam alaikum!

  8. Ned

    So, this Iman says that it is ok to beat your wife.

  9. Zaraf

    Hahaha, the wife beating topic. Funny how this ALWAYS manages to appear in Islamic talks.

    Ok, here’s the deal.

    Yes, Islam allows the “beating” of your wife. But don’t confuse the understanding of “beating” with your own understanding, and linking it to the domestic violence I’m sure you are all too familiar with.

    In Islam, God has dictated to us steps to resolve disputes between husbands and wives. Disputes are inevitable when you are living together, but to stay together, you have to overcome them. So then, what are the steps outlined by God?

    1. Gently talk to each other and try to work things out.

    2. If that doesn’t work, then they do not sleep together. Giving each other distance can stir the angry mind back into calmness.

    3. If step 2 doesn’t work, then family mediation is called in. A family member, or members, come and try to help resolve the problem.

    4. Now the “beating” comes. Assuming that the wife is in the wrong and screwing things up, she is struck with the following conditions:

    1. Cannot be done in front of children.
    2. Cannot leave any marks on the skin
    3. Cannot leave any internal damage (eg broken bones).
    4. Cannot strike the face or other sensitive areas.
    5. And another that I’ve heard is that it cannot make a sound.

    What all of this shows is that the “beating” (which is more like just a single strike), is not meant to be physically damaging, but instead is symbolic. It’s meant to be like a “WAKE UP! What are you doing?!?”

    You see, Islam doesn’t encourage the hitting of your wife (or husband), but instead, regulates it. Fighting is going to happen in marriages, and sometimes, they could become physical. Islam puts up a barrier on this to say “Look, here is the boundary”…and if you look, the boundary is so restrictive in whole beating issue that you might as well not do it.

    Every Muslim should try to follow the example of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), and like Aalia Canadian mentioned, he never beat his wife, and said to be good to your wives. So then how can people claim that Islam not only allows the beating of wives but encourages it? Regulation is different from an allowance. Remember that.

    Don’t try to twist things around to suit your own corrupt agenda.

  10. Luke

    I am a huge fan of little mosque. I live in the US
    The one thing I was objecting to is calling baber extremist. He might be extremist in his views, but also he is the only character in this sitcom which has a beard and a kufi(cap). Is the director trying to potray that people with beard and kufi are extremist?

    If not, how about showing a bearded muslim without extermisit views as well to balance it

  11. ps

    I really enjoyed this episode.
    And oh! how Amaar was jealous. Loved it!

  12. Ali

    Anyone who has read my posts knows that I am a very liberal-minded muslim. This episode, though, has just breached all the lines I drew. It made me very mad.

    Courtship is too serious of an issue in my Islam. It is a huge topic as the consequences (family? destruction? adultry? children? sex?) are too grand. This is one muslim “law” that seems totally mispracticed, misrepresented, and misunderstood.

    This episode did no justice in addressing this issue. I think that the way Rayan treated Jeff (who was portrayed as an innocent non-muslim) and kicked him out of her home was RUDE. Not being allowed to date does NOT allow her to trample him the way she did. I think a good muslim, or a good ANYTHING, put in that sutuation should have at least elaborated. She should have rejected him very differently.

    I thought this was about bridging gaps? Are we now briding a gap by turning people away without an explanation? Treating Jeff as if he is not human just because he is a non-muslim? Does the viewer not empathize with a man who, from his frame of reference, did nothing wrong?

    If I had written this episode, I would have either emphasized that Jeff was a bad person not worthy of an explanation; or, if he is a good and innocent non-muslim, then I would have forced Rayan to empathize and explain to him as to why she has changed her mind – could she not turn him down without leaving a bitter impression on him?

    Yes, I imagine some muslim girls may have been in a similar scenario. But I can’t imagine a good person being so rude to someone. A ‘good person’ would follow up and reconcile, at least make the effort to let him understand. Otherwise, she is just rude and of no manners. You make a mistake, then you take the responsibility of fixing it with an explanation “No, Jeff, our beliefs are different and I cannot be with a non-muslim. I hope you find what you are looking for…”

    Remember Rayan is supposed to be intelligent. She is a doctor. In this episode she behaves like a 14 year old of no class. Until now, her character has been admirable. She has been a voice of reason and justice throughout the series. All of the sudden she makes two huge mistakes: First, agreeing to the date, and second, being so rude to a seemingly innocent person. But at the end, she is only held accountable for one. She only apologized to Amar for setting up the date. Doesn’t Jeff deserve a sincere apology as well? “Sorry for kicking you out of my home Jeff, I was nervous and I made a mistake asking you to come.”

    I think that something as simple as writing Jeff’s ‘exit line’ with more anger and frustration would have fixed this episode in many ways. At least then she would have been righteous and we would not have needed closure with Jeff’s character. Maybe he was just a bad actor?

    I also thought that Fatima’s character did something odd in this episode. In once sentence she defends Islamic all-girl schools, and in the next she takes the little girl’s side. Fatima is supposed to be stubborn. Her signature “raised eyebrows” facial expression is that of an extremely stubborn woman. Yet she changes her mind, lowers her eyebrows and puts on a supportive smile for the little girl. Shouldn’t the girl need to plead a little to gain Fatima’s compassion?

    Amar and Rayan flirting at the end… oh.. I have to comment. It’s okay if he has a crush. But again, you’d think that an intelligent well-educated man, a lawyer, would at least recognize and admit by now “oh wait a second… I’m acting like a jealous kid, I think I have feelings for Rayan”. He doesn’t need to tell anyone about this just yet. But after this obvious display of affection, a credible Amar would have at least admitted to himself and to the viewer that he has considered it.

    Zarqa – do something! Please…

  13. rstn

    I invite everyone to respond to the following questions.

    1.) Father’s and daughters.

    Yassir is not at all religious: “Why would any normal person want to learn about Islam.” Yet he gets bent out of shape when he hears his daughter was holding hands.Why?

    2.) Social pressure. Sex outside of marriage is equally forbidden to men and women in Islam, yet all too often its women more than men whom society puts over the coals for not appearing chaste. Why?

    3.) Gossiping among the choir.

    What role does gossip play in your religious community?

    4.) Virgins for life.

    Why was Rayyan’s mother so eager to see her dating?

    5.) Mixed messages.

    Rayyan says she hurt Jeff. She used him to rebel. Babur, to put his foot down with his daughter. The Imam, as an object of his jealousy. Yet everyone claimed to be acting in the name of Islam. Feelings were hurt. What image do we give about our religion when we act from mixed intentions.

    6.) It’s all in the pamphlet.

    Jeff also used Islam to get to Rayyan. But what if he had been seriously interested in learning about the religion? How should one respond to questions about your faith?

    7.) Opposite Reactions.

    Babur’s daughter says she hates him when he plans to send her to boarding school. Sometimes when parents to raise their children strictly is backfires and causes them to run the other way. What is a parent to do?

    8.) Flames of Love.

    Imam Ammar usually takes a level, moderate approach everything; however, he goes CRAZY when when it seems Rayyan is interested in another man. Does anyone know how we can get love’s irresistible power to work for us rather than against us as people of faith?

  14. rstn

    9.) Put some color in it.

    Babur’s daughter is afraid of becoming an “Islamabot.”
    Babur says that God is his witness that he has “no imagination.” How do we instill our practice of religion with the creative vitality it needs to prosper?

  15. Ali

    (Sorry but I’m not finished)

    Yassir – a Lebanese man married to a western convert. He lacks religion, he is openly sexual and flirty, makes out with his wife infront of his scarf-wearing daughter, yet he suddenly finds himself in a position where he is preaching to his daughter? I just don’t buy it.

    In this show, he is the voice of practicality. Dude, your daughter is probably in her late 20’s. She obviously has a more religious mind than you do. She has chosen to wear hijab when your own wife doesn’t. She prays regularly when you and your wife don’t. And now you are at a moral crossroads with her? A practical man with very little religious drive would have allowed his daughter this freedom with enough trust that she would make the right decision. He would probably be concerned that she would fall for a non-muslim – as a Lebanese man he probably doesn’t want that publicity among his family. But I see Yassir leaving room for this, and not worrying about it until it has happened. Isn’t this what he has told us about himself? In this episode his denial statements were uncertain and he second-guessed them instantly. This from the man who has re-assurance for everything?

    Yassir has often left things for the last minute. I see him being in denial about it for much longer. I see him ignoring it until if/when it got serious (even Baber was able to ignore his daughter’s period). And, when/if Rayan says “Dad I love Jeff”, I see Yassir plotting a scheme to break them up, and finally compromising on a scheme to convert Jeff to Islam to please the muslim relatives in Lebanon. Rayan and her mother have demonstrated authority over Yassir several times already. Why is Yassir questioning this authority now? Would Homer Simpson question Lisa or Marge?

    If Rayan was younger and not already a doctor, I can imagine Yassir wanting to protect her from boys all together – probably because he knows how boys think because he was the same. But she is of a marrying age, and he must be aware of this as any practical Lebanese man would be. So this scenario is not an option.

    I feel that episode 8 weakened all the characters. In fact, the only consistency I’ve seen is from Baber’s daughter. She has not yet lied to us about herself and we can absorb her actions. But the other characters need to make up their minds about who they are. We can only relate to a character if we know him/her well enough.

  16. WOW, I cannot believe stuff like this is being said here. Where are half of you so called Muslims getting your informaiton?
    First of all, I have NEVER seen a line in the Quran that states to ‘beat’ your wife (not even a gentle slap). I’m sure most of the garbage being spilled in here is coming from the widely accepted Hadiths. These books have been screwing up the religion since it’s first arrival. There is only Abu-Barkar (this is the only Hadiths that does not contradict any of the lines in the Quran). Thousands more were written up to a century after the Prophet’s death. They are unverifiable, especially because some of them were written during the Crusades.
    And the man being in control because he’s stronger and blah blah blah? Did anyone ever think of looking into history before they wrote stuff like this down. The Quran is written for the past, present and future. So that means, that some things relate to the time of the Prophet and some only pretain to the present.
    I agree, Rayaan should have explained why she couldn’t kiss him, rather then just saying it’s Islam- it’s not a chore.
    And to you NED, if you’re going to type something, at least do yourself a favour and type something true. Yes, it’s true, a lot of bad things are happening in the Muslim world, some of it because of it’s own people and some of it because of the people outside of Islam.
    For example, certain Christian sections (and I won’t say which ones but I think if I say look up Bush everyone will figure it out), have actually had their own Christian people pretend to be Muslim scholars in order to mess up the faith from the inside. And that is why Muslims, who blindly follow these people, believe in things like Jesus will come back. Prophet Mohammad (PBBUH) was the last prophet so why a long ago passed on prophet return for the Muslims? But millions of Muslims believe this?
    SO lesson here is….I talk waay too much. Sorry for sounding a little angry, but really enough is enough. You want to teach others about religion, you’re going to have to learn it first. I did not go through 7 years of religious studies, and major in Islamic history to see such a wonderful religion be screwed by untruths.
    Want to learn more, I’ll be happy to give you my email 😀

  17. Zaraf

    Azeena, not to start any crazy arguments with other Muslims, but it seems that YOUR perceptions of certain things are a bit out of whack.

    So I’m assuming you’ve read the Quran, then you’ve probably come across Sura Nisa (chapter 4), and ayat 34, which reads as follows (Yusuf Ali Translation):

    4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

    There you go, your never has now become a once. The fact that this is in the Quran and an explanation of it is what I wrote above after Ned’s posts.

    You mention that “Abu-Barkar” is the only source of authentic hadith. Unforunately for you, that is incorrect. First of all, it is “Al-Bukhari”, and “Abu Bakar” (you even wrote that wrong) was the name of Prophet Muhammed’s (pbuh) closest male companion, and father of his wife, Aisha.

    Both Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are considered authentic sources of hadith. They both contain ONLY sahih (authentic) and muthawathri (undisputed) hadith.

    “And that is why Muslims, who blindly follow these people, believe in things like Jesus will come back.”

    Oh, sorry to burst your little bubble here, but this hadith is muthawathri. Undisputed. It came from so many different sources that there is no chance it was fabricated, etc. It is even higher than sahih. So Jesus IS coming back. There is a REASON why there are many similarities between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism…and that is that they all came from the same source. But Christianity and Judaism (as Muslims believe) were corrupted along the way, and so the message had to be reaffirmed.

    In the Quran, Sura Maryam, ayat 33 (Yusuf Ali Translation):

    19:33 “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!

    This is a narration of what Jesus (pbuh) said while in the cradle. “the day that I die”…Muslims believe that Jesus never died, and that he was raised up to heaven alive. He will return, kill the anti-christ (Dajjal), and will live out his life here on Earth and die here on Earth before the Day of Judgment would begin. It is one of the major signs of the Day of Judgment.

    Oh, and please don’t try to bring your “religious studies” and “Islamic history” studies here. I’m assuming you studied these in a secular university? Yeah, cause otherwise, you wouldn’t be thinking the way you are. I’ve spoken with another person who was much like you. Studied “Comparative Religion” in school, and did a Masters in “Islamic History” and a PhD in “The Caliphate”. Too bad all of his secular studies led him farther away from Islam than when he began. There are both secular (worldy) and religious (spiritual) aspects of Islam. If you neglect one side, you won’t have the complete picture. Both are needed to have a comprehensive understanding.

    “You want to teach others about religion, you’re going to have to learn it first.”

    Yes indeed. I still need to do LOTS more studying, but you need even more. Before you act like you’re a scholar, go and study under some REAL Islamic scholars for a few years. Oh, and at least grasp the basics of classical Arabic and its grammar before you even attempt to act intelligent in the ways of Islam. It doesn’t look too good when you rattle off “Islamic facts”, yet screw up the most basic things even Muslim children would know.

  18. Brad

    OK, if they had her explain things to Jeff the way Rayan responded to me above, it would have made more sense.

    I really like all of the characters (except the Immam, just too smarmy). Even Baber, who I didn’t care for at first, has grown on me. But I agree with what someone else said, much of the actions in this episode were out of character for them.

    I also don’t by the “wife hitting” argument. If you haven’t resolved things after following all of those other steps (talking, give some space, family mediation) why would a ‘wake up slap’ make any difference other than to act as some sort of ultimatum.

    Does this mean that, if the husband is in the wrong, the wife can give him a ‘wake up slap’?

  19. Canadian Christian

    A question back to John, the original poster. I thought that Amish people didn’t use things like computers or televisions. Is that a generalization?

  20. Egyptian Muslim

    Bringing the conversation back to the original topic (dating) someone was asking what the “proper” way for muslims to date is and how muslims usually do it. First, I want to say that I am a muslim woman, I am muhajjaba which means I cover my hair and body, and I am Egyptian.
    The way a muslim should date is not set in stone, and it depends upon your own personal beliefs and the culture you were raised in.
    At the risk of generalizing, I will say that Egyptians are more liberal than say, Saudi Arabians, and I know for a fact that many egyptians date, but the definition of “dating” is different. First, there is usually no physical contact, and it is always with the intention of getting to know each other so as to get married eventually. The parents sometimes know and sometimes are left in the dark until the woman and man are ready to get married. E.G. I know tons of peole who dated through college and after graduating each told their parents and got married. Of crouse, their are many exception to this norm, but this type of dating is common.
    Now I am not in anyway saying that this is the proper or improper way to date in Islam, I am just shedding light on what’s cultural prevalent in Egypt.
    As a woman, among your peers, it’s for the most part culturally acceptable to say you have a boyfriend, but the assumption will be that there is no physical contact involved.
    Personally, I haven’t allowed myself to date in the past because I was not ready for marriage, but now that I am, I am dating, which involves going to a public place and talking and getting to know the person, that’s it. I don’t see anything inappropriate with that and I feel it’s my right to get to know a person before considering marrying him.
    So in short, I don’t agree with Rayyanne’s “no dating” policy, and I definately don’t agree with the way she dealt with it, and I hate pamphlets, I’d rather talk about Islam face to face.

  21. I liked Yassir in this episode. He is funny in the other episodes, in a static way. How he balances his work, his faith and his family is the constant source of humor from him.

    For me, he started to show some backbone that I thought was missing from his character. How he reacted to Baber’s “emergency” declaration and Rayyan’s dating situation endeared him to me. Clearly, he has his family’s best interest at heart, above his work, and maybe it is his family that is the root of his devotion to money-making. Yay Yassir!

  22. John

    Wow, what an interesting discussion. I’m learning a lot.

    A note to Ali: I think Yassir’s reaction to Rayan dating had nothing to do with being Muslim, and everything to do with being a father who never had any competition for his daughter’s affection before. All the stuff about Jeff being non-Muslim gave him an excuse to dislike the man. I’ve seen this before among my peers — some guys who were completely liberal and, frankly, horndogs in their own youth become very protective and conservative when it’s their little girl at stake — even when their little girl is old enough to be a mom.

    To answer the question immediately above: Yes, the Amish do not use computers, television, motorized vehicles, electricity, or any kind of technology that post-dates 1800 or so. Nor do they accept “charity” from the government in the form of social security. Although my family is Amish on my father’s side, I myself was not raised Amish. For those who don’t know, the Amish are the most conservative of the Mennonite people, who are an offshoot of Christianity. Most Mennonites have adopted technology and live in the modern world in that sense. The Amish believe in simple living, and “demut” (humility). They don’t even wear buttons, which are considered too flashy. I probably have too much pride to be good Amish, but I am Amish enough, however, to be a pacifist.

    (To be completely accurate, I should state that there are “new-order” Amish who do adopt some technology, for example, driving black cars. They paint the chrome black so it won’t look too flashy.)

    This may interest some: Amish women keep their heads covered in public. Modest dress is encouraged. Men and women are separated during prayer. Sound familiar?

  23. Noura

    Peace with you all / Salam,

    I don’t know how this topic has gotten so far from just a discussion of the show & its applicability to Muslim/Non-Musliom’s lives, to a debate about wife-beating. As muslims, we know that wives are NOT allowed to be beaten. We KNOW that our messenger, the prophet sent to teach this religion never hurt a woman. We also know that some people will bring this up just to hijack the conversation. So please, just ignore these people and let the oprignial conversation resume.

    About the show, it is by far my favorite one so far. Usually, the episodes carry much caricature, but this one did not. It dealt with the topic delicately and with alot of nuance. You just have to think about it, or watch it twice.

    First of all, only Ammar called Jeff “shallow”, not the other characters. He also made fun of his name, all because of his jealousy. That’s obvious. It also shows in his interaction with Jeff. There’s also the fact that Jeff is physically intimidating for both Ammar and Yasir.

    Baber is labelled an extremist, but upon closer inspection, he IS the character that is changing and evolving the most. He accepts that his daughter not wear the scarf, he doesn’t oppose her choice of music (episode with the convert), and he IS improving. Fatima is also improving. Yasir and Sara however, are just as bad as ever if not worse.
    Ammar, he reverend and Rayyan are unchanged, not good/bad, just as they were initially. We are getting to know them better with time I guess.

    And for those who accuse the Rayyan of not being graceful…the show lasts 20 minutes and they did a great job with the time given so get over it. You can imagnie that she calls the guy up and apologizes. Or not. What the episode is about is her struggle in ths environment, something that is dealt with appropriately I find.

    peace out

  24. Brad

    Get over it? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Get over THAT.

    I found that the episode bothered me a bit and I haven’t time to watch things 2 or 3 times to really “get it” and I have talked to other people (non-Muslims) who were of the same opinion.

    This show has a lot of potential but I think that they need to be sharper on the writing.

  25. sunrise4love

    The one thing I was objecting to is calling baber extremist. He might be extremist in his views, but also he is the only character in this sitcom which has a beard and a kufi(cap). Is the director trying to potray that people with beard and kufi are extremist?
    if not, how about showing a bearded muslim without extermisit views as well!!!!!!!

  26. Aalia Canadian

    LoOoOoL woooow some of the things I read are funny but Zaraf,,,,tabarakAllah for your efforts of portraying the truth of Islam. There have been many deviations of the straight path of following the Qu’ran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed (saws). About having education in Islam? Kind of reminded me of this girl who told me she had extensive knowledge about Islam, had a major in Islamic studies but at the same time she was asking me, “What Madhab did you get married in?” I told her I got married according to Sunnah but she kept repeating, “You had to have gotten married according to a Madhab. I have a Major in Islamic studies, so I know what I am talking about (etc etc).” LoL I just kept laughing and said ooookay as you like…In regards to giving religious advice, BRiNg eViDeNcE! Qu’ran or Authentic Hadiths. Zaraf you did a good job bringing up that verse from Chapter of the Women, that even slipped my mind. Men are the protectors of women and charged with our care, because they are physically stronger than us and women are more easily affected with emotions. Ned, quit trying to cause trouble with your weird videos. Anyways I just watched this episode and was AS USUAL not surprised by the way things went. Rayyan should have explained to Jeff about WHY women dont go out with men, instead of just saying, “Its Islam.” Okaaaay…AND? LoL oh well. Also, someone else mentioned Baber being portrayed as an extremist because he has a beard and kufi. I agree with you. Whats the point? Just because Baber follows the Sunnah of keeping a beard and wears a Islamic cap, he is labeled as an EXTREMIST? LoL SubhanAllah. My husband has a beard and wears his Islamic cap, maybe he is a crazy religious fanatic? Nope. Overall, this episode about Rayyan accepting a date with a NON-MUSLIM is ridiculous BUT I did laugh at some parts involving Baber.

  27. CanadianMuslimGurl

    Here’s some good advice: you all need to stop your conjecturing. Unless you are a religious scholar or have engaged in some formal study of Islam, please do not interpret Quranic verses or pass judgment on issues that you really know nothing about. Being a Muslim does not make you an authority on Islam, and providing religious conclusions when you are not qualified to do so will only do a disservice to the religion. If someone is truly interested in learning about the issue of dating in Islam, or anything else about the religion for that matter, there is a vast collection of books and academic material available by knowledgable scholars who truly understand the content and spirit of Islam–consult these sources if you want real information instead of these dime-a-dozen charlatans.

  28. Aalia Canadian

    LoL who is the charlatan? Does having studied in Saudi Arabia make you a Sheikh OR someone who knows about Islam?? With knoweledge in Osool-al-Fiqh or Shari’ah?? Whats IS a charlatan? Isnt that a French word…well said Canadian Muslimah:D And your right, we should stop the conjecturing and try to stick to the main topic of this discussin, which is Little Mosque’s episodes.

    Salaam alaikum:)

  29. Mel

    Mohd,

    The main rule is not to have a sexual relationship before marriage, this is something taught in all religions, not only Islam.

    Not ALL religions have prescriptions against pre- and non-marital sex. There are a lot more religions than the big five (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism), so that’s a huge generalization. The Buddha, for example, never said anything about premarital sex within a committed relationship, and traditions vary according to the branch of Buddhism. Neopaganism and Wicca don’t prohibit nonmarital sex, although it also discourages casual/non-meaningful sex (and yes, they’re modern religions, but they’re still religions). Historically, many other religions have also allowed pre/nonmarital sex.

    Aalia Canadian,

    I (and many other people) would disagree that men “don’t let emotions sway their thinking” and women do. In fact, sociological studies suggest that in general, people are much worse than we think we are at separating emotions from logic, even when it comes to things like deciding what brand of car to buy (which is of course why car ads focus on how “cool” and “fun” the car is, and how awesome it’ll be to drive much more often than they focus on fuel efficiency and safety ratings). We are not robots, and I, for one, am glad; people who could truly make decisions without emotion would frighten me. It’s much healthier and more human to make decisions by balancing emotion and logic.

    And women are just as capable of that as men.

  30. Aalia Canadian

    Hey Mel:) No offense but I dont care what sociological or scientific studies prove, I only go by what the Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths say. Women are not as physically strong as men (unless the man is super skinny and compared to a musculur woman). Women are more emotional than men thats why we cry and men dont cry very often, even when they are really sad. I never seen my dad cry, but I have seen my mom cry. Some men are more emotional than others, but in the end the Qu’ran says that men were put in charge to take care of the women. Before I came to Islam, most of my friends were guys becuz girls gossip and let stupid things get in the way, such as boyfriends and other materialistic matters. But not obviously since I am Muslim, my only friends are girls. LoL I only have a few friends but they are really cool and arent emotional. One is kinda crazy but she is cool anyways:D Btw in Islam there is NO PRE-MARITAL RELATIONS. This is to prevent children from being born without a father, and other gross things that are so rampant in the Western society.

  31. symphix

    About the wife beating part, this is a way to deal with wives who have done a nusyuz. A nusyuz is an action when a wife shows disobedience to her husband without any reasonable reasons according to a ‘syarak’ law (not syariah, that’s different). Please take note I am taking these from a Malay book so the translation could be bad to awful. Sorry.

    The wife become hostile towards her husband because
    1: She is not educated or lacks moral and Islamic teachings.
    2: Her misinterpretation of her duty in a household
    3: The wife that thinks she is the most important person without consenting the needs of her husband
    4: Influenced by negative influences such as….. get ready….. the MEDIA!!! that often show the freedom of women in the modern world.

    If she commits this, she will be given these punishments according to this order.

    1 – Given advice by the husband
    2 – Separate the place of sleep
    3 – Ugh….. wife beating.

    Wife beating is not the first step but the last measure that your wife would not act up against you. Yes, I believe in human rights and the universal suffrage of women but you must remember, this was dictated by Muhammad SAW about 1400 years ago.

    Certainly, in modern times, this is certainly not recommended and now, many opt for the talak (divorce) or khuluk (a man’s proposition to a woman if he refuses to divorce her in a form of a material items such as money, houses, gold, etc.) or even the fasakh (annulment which the man has not fulfilled when he performed the nikah). According to Muhammad SAW, he does not encourage divorce because marriage is to make both man and woman happy forever till they are apart.

    The Quran have many meanings and interpretations. This show has opened up much dialog among Muslim and non-Muslims alike. One’s general opinions is the different from the next. The wife beating agenda differs from a person who is secular and a devout Muslims. Who are we to argue as Allah SWT only knows what right is right.

    Oh, the dating thing as well. I am going to mention in my blog (some of my materials are things that I might use at the comedy clubs… yeah, I am a stand up comedian…. an aspiring one and these are very offensive for anyone to read, so a word of caution). I will try to mention the thing as a whole in it…. as soon I can get these pretzel nuggets to open up.

  32. 1.) Father’s and daughters.
    Yassir is not at all religious: “Why would any normal person want to learn about Islam.” Yet he gets bent out of shape when he hears his daughter was holding hands.Why?

    Like someone said before, every man is like this with his daughter. Even (perhaps, especially?) if he was a womanizer when he was younger. This Jeff guy was holding hands with his little girl!

    2.) Social pressure. Sex outside of marriage is equally forbidden to men and women in Islam, yet all too often its women more than men whom society puts over the coals for not appearing chaste. Why?

    This is so typical of all societies. God knows why… Even here in America, the football player who sleeps around is a “stud” but the girls he sleeps with are “sluts.” It’s like the guys are excused b/c they are “expected” to sow their wild oats. It’ so common that a Muslim guy will move to N. America, go crazy dating all these girls, and then when he wants to get married, he goes back home to marry a virgin who is “good enough” for him. I knew a lady from Iran who lived in America by herself and didn’t date or anything, but she said Iranian men looked down on her b/c they felt she was “tainted” by living in the west. What a double standard!

    3.) Gossiping among the choir.
    What role does gossip play in your religious community?

    In Islam, as we all know, gossip is considered one of the WORST sins. Unfortunately, it’s a sin that is usually ignored. I’ve seen people’s lives torn apart from gossip.

    4.) Virgins for life.
    Why was Rayyan’s mother so eager to see her dating?

    Rayyan’s mom dated Rayyan’s dad, and is your typical Western-raised person. Her Islam is probably sincere, but honestly she probably converted just for her husband. She obviously thinks Rayyan works too hard and doesn’t have enough of a social life, and probably wouldn’t mind either way if Rayyan wasn’t a very strict Muslim. Since she isn’t one herself. Btw… why is this question called “Virgins for life?”

    5.) Mixed messages.
    Rayyan says she hurt Jeff. She used him to rebel. Babur, to put his foot down with his daughter. The Imam, as an object of his jealousy. Yet everyone claimed to be acting in the name of Islam. Feelings were hurt. What image do we give about our religion when we act from mixed intentions.

    That we are human and very, very flawed. I actually like that about this program. It shows that we (Muslims) are just regular people who are human, and if we screw up it’s because we are like everyone else; it’s not because if Islam specifically.

    6.) It’s all in the pamphlet.
    Jeff also used Islam to get to Rayyan. But what if he had been seriously interested in learning about the religion? How should one respond to questions about your faith?

    Well.. I think she did the right thing in the beginning by giving Jeff a pamphlet and directing him to the mosque, since he was obviously hitting on her. If he was really interested, he would find a way to learn about Islam. She could also recommend some books he could read if she felt he were really interested. Or given him a Qur’an.

    7.) Opposite Reactions.
    Babur’s daughter says she hates him when he plans to send her to boarding school. Sometimes when parents to raise their children strictly is backfires and causes them to run the other way. What is a parent to do?

    Good question. Something I worry about when I have kids. But I don’t think you can just yell at them and expect them to respect you. Shouldn’t respect be earned?

    8.) Flames of Love.
    Imam Ammar usually takes a level, moderate approach everything; however, he goes CRAZY when when it seems Rayyan is interested in another man. Does anyone know how we can get love’s irresistible power to work for us rather than against us as people of faith?

    That was soooo hilarious… I don’t know the answer to this question, but I TOTALLY want them to hook up (and by hook up, I mean get engaged).

    9.) Put some color in it.
    Babur’s daughter is afraid of becoming an “Islamabot.”
    Babur says that God is his witness that he has “no imagination.” How do we instill our practice of religion with the creative vitality it needs to prosper?

    Oh, man… I think it’s important to realize that you can be a normal person (like Rayyan is) and still be a good Muslim. You don’t have to ship your kids off to a far away place. Also, when it comes to kids, you should probably emphasize what you LOVE about it, instead of just saying, “This is forbidden! That is forbidden!” etc, etc…

  33. Alidost

    Wife beating rules by Wahhabi Muslims as in that video by Ned from Bahrain.
    Wahhabism brought to you by Brits and recently CIA money who also brought you Saudi system & the Taliban.
    Get the facts.
    Islam (Qur’an & Hadith) does now allow beating of any human including your wife.

  34. Firefighter

    Hi,

    I am a firefighter in North America and I have a question for an upcoming exam.

    I go into a burning house and I see a woman in Muslim dress lying unconscious on the floor.

    I don’t know where her husband, or father or husband is.

    What should I do?

  35. Steve

    I would think you should leave that room.

    Sure, she would die and you could be charged with murder but better a murderer than to be culturally insensitive.

  36. Huda

    I think its a great show. At the end of the day its not what she should or shouldn’t have done, the point of the show is that a muslim woman living in western culture might actually have been in the situation. Its also a comedy, not realism.

    Btw – all the wannabe scholars unless you have studied the hadith you might want to think before you start issuing fatwahs. Not all hadith (including Bukari hadith) are classed as authentic and have different classifications by the scholars, there is a long history of study. Unless you did more than read a few books on the subject you’re better to keep silent.

  37. Mary

    That would be a no win situation for you firefighter for it seems that whatever you would do in that situation you lose.

    Perhaps get into another line of work.

  38. Mary

    I don’t get how Rayyan can be a doctor.

    Well at least a doctor with Male patients.

    She should only treat females.

  39. Mary

    John, why make up such lies about yourself?

    Your family is Amish?

    Hello, you are typing this on the Internet.

    Get a clue John. If you are going to make up lies about yourself don’t make it so obvious.

  40. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    This is my first comment in awhile….reading through so many of them I don’t know whether to laugh or cry….

    Ya’all are either pulling everyone’s legs or just plain obnoxious on purpose???

    I guess this is the way it goes with blogs such as these, when the subject is Islam/Muslims??

    There are bound to be some who ‘preach’ to high heavens and those who ‘insult’ at any cost…little room for respect….

    Where are the monitors of this blog anyway???

    I would like to assume that Zaraf and Aalia Canadian mean well (good intentions) but really, it would be nice if you two would give it a rest.

    Turn off your computer, pray, make sujuud, or whatever comforts your soul, re-read the essay, “Convertitis,” spend time outdoors….many of the Prophets did the same.

    And Steve, what a character you are….needling everyone at any expense…

    It would be nice if ya’all got offa your high horses…get back down to earth. We’re all made from the same clay…look for the commonalties in one another.

    Firefighter: Well of course you save the Muslim woman. When you start reading looney stuff about Islam and Muslims throw it out.

    If it contradicts the Qur’an or authentic hadith it is contrary to the religion. Could be a cultural thang, passed down for centuries.

    Look at Pakistan/India, for example. Centuries ago they were all Hindus. Centuries later many are Muslims with some practices that date back to Hindu customs. (example; a (Muslim) man cannot hear the voice of a widow (Muslim) woman, baloney)

    Go with your God given (or whatever your beliefs are, no disrespect) common sense.

    This old, blue eyed, gray haired hijabi, American convert really meant no bad ill towards anyone posting comments in this blog from my comments above….

    I guess what I want to say is….my generation is dying off…we did this and that for our Muslim communities…we also had good intentions….many times successful, Alhumdulillah, (in bridging communications between peoples of all backgrounds and other areas of our communities)…

    I hope you learn from your experiences and your elders….history is there as a God given gift…don’t take if for granted.

    This IS a good show. It will have story lines that will be controversial. It will have episodes we dislike more than others. But, this merits repeating, it is a start.

    Keep up the good work LMOTP.

    Salam to All –

  41. paramedic

    firefighter,
    i’m a muslim paramedic..i’m no muslim scholar but maybe i’ll just share something with you..Muslims believe in amal maaruf, nahi mungkar which means do good and forbid evil..saving lives is doing something good..i guess you should save her rather than leave her to die..
    as a firefighter you’re suppose to save lives and properties..so why dont you just do your job first and deal with the ramifications later? in our line of werk, hesitation means difference in life and death

    wassalam

  42. What are some of you even thinking when answering Firefighter? Of course he should save the woman! And if her husband has a problem with him touching her to save her life, and would rather that she had died, she should leave the jerk for sure!

    Back to the episode. I agree mostly with what Ali has posted. Yes, she was wrong to get involved with Jeff, but she owes him an explanation. If he was at all interested in Islam, the whole community has probably scared him away, and now he must have a pretty negative impression of Islam.

    And the gossiping was wrong. Everyone knows that Rayyan is a doctor, and Babur should have seen that the hand she was “holding” had a bandage on it. We are supposed to make excuses for fellow Muslims and assume the best, not assume the worst and tell everyone in the community what you assume.

    It was pretty funny watching Amar squirm, although he did act like a big baby. I guess he got pretty carried away.

    I hope we see Babur’s relationship with his daughter improve. Telling parents that you hate them is no joke.

    I love Rayyan’s clothes!

  43. Waleed

    Steve and Firefighter,

    y would u not save the women ? the Prophet clearly said. “actions are to be judged by intentions” and your intention is to save the women not to hold her inorder to satisfy your sexual desries. I find it interesting how the lack of knowledge and incorrect interpretation can lead people to jump to such awkward conclusions.

  44. A. Viewer

    ” I dont care what sociological or scientific studies prove, I only go by what the Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths say.”

    Now I understand Baber’s daughter’s reference to being turned into an Islamobot. Thanks.

  45. John

    Mary, please read my second post. I never claimed to be Amish, I said that my family was Amish. My father married a Catholic, and I was raised that way, but I have since walked away from that church as well. I work as a computer programmer. I certainly wouldn’t be of much use on a farm, or building furniture. Rather than calling me a liar in a public forum, I wish you had asked me to clarify or explain myself further.

    peace

  46. Canadian Christian

    Paramedic, you’re right that common sense should prevail, and I hope that in many places it does. But it sometimes it doesn’t:

    Follow the link below where it talks about fifteen Saudi girls who died in a school fire because the religious police wouldn’t let the girls out, or let the firemen approach them, as the girls weren’t wearing their headscarves.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

    At least the firemen wanted to try and rescue the girls.

  47. Canadian Christian

    John,

    Yes, you did answer that earlier, and when I asked it I hope you took it in the “curiousity fashion and not as a “who’s this guy trying to kid” fashion.

    Another quesiton, if your father married a Catholic, how was it treated by his family? How do the Amish treat going against the faith, if that’s at all what happened?

    CC

  48. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    A. Viewer:

    ” I dont care what sociological or scientific studies prove, I only go by what the Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths say.”

    Now I understand Baber’s daughter’s reference to being turned into an Islamobot. Thanks.”

    I see your point and agree. Many Muslims believe the same, that we are living in a time of dark ages for Muslims, not Islam, but Muslims, how they interpret, practice their religion, etc.

    There are quite a lot of science references, for example, in Qur’an and Hadith…

    And also, there are plenty of other resources to read from:

    “The Bible, The Qur’an and Science,”
    by Dr. Maurice Bucaille.

    “Quranic Sciences,”
    by Afzalur Rahman.

    Aalia Canadian possibly submitted her comment in a rush or is mis-read?

    As ‘muscialchef’ noted; make 70 excuses for your brother or sister…I agree.

    We humans love to judge but don’t love to be judged…;)

  49. M

    oops, and –

    Salam to All –

  50. John

    My father marrying a Catholic wasn’t a big issue in his family. Although my father and his parents are long dead, I got the impression that they were all moving away from orthodoxy long before Mom came along.

    I’ll try to answer the more general question, though: One of the reasons that the Amish (and other Anabaptists) broke away from the Catholic Church is because of their belief that children should not be baptised. They believe that you have to grow up and be old enough to understand your choices, and then you can choose to be baptised and join the church. Some communities even send teenage boys out into the larger world for a while to experience it first, before they are expected to come back and settle in. And some choose not to join the church.

    The original Amish practiced shunning — if you didn’t join, then no one from the community could talk to you or do business with you anymore. But this has largely fallen by the wayside in the last century. It’s common in Mennonite communities for family and social ties to be maintained between people of various degrees of conservatism. I have one cousin who teaches school in regular schools, and another who stays on the farm and dresses in traditional manner, and they socialize together without friction.

    Mennonites don’t try to tell anyone else how to live — that would be putting yourself ahead of anyone else, which is a no-no. (This is why the Amish shun technology — because new gadgets can make people think themselves better than their neighbours, or make them wealthy be being able to work more land, or worse yet, make the community dependent on outside providers, when they prefer to remain independent. But if you’re an old Amish farmer, say, with terrible arthritis, then it is very likely you would be encouraged by your kin to buy and use a conventional tractor. There’s no pride in that.)

    But, I shouldn’t get too far off the topic of this web site, so I’ll ask another question about Islam. I have heard it said that while it is forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man, the reverse is not true. Did I understand this correctly? If so, I’d like to hear more about how that works — is the non-Muslim wife expected/allowed to continue in her own religious practices? Are there limits on what religions she can belong to? Would Fatima be less upset about her son studying with a ‘white’ girl than Babar was about his daughter’s study buddy?

  51. Canadian Christian

    Thanks John for the explanation. Based on some things you said in prior postings there appeared to be several similarities in both Islamic and Amish ritual and culture. That was why I was interested in how the Amish treated those who broke away.

  52. Aalia Canada

    i think this site banned my IP address???

  53. Aalia Canada

    I knew it LoL because I cant leave messages from my laptop in the other room so I tried my computer and it works…omg…well here was the message i was trying to put earlier but this stupid page kept coming up telling me “you have already typed a comment” or something…

  54. I’ve been having similar problems. Here’s the post I made with regard to Mary and John’s comments.

  55. Luke

    I wish more people would answer that Firefighter’s question.

    If he goes into a burning building and sees a Muslim woman laying unconscious what should he do?

    I guess he could back out of the building and see if he can find the woman’s father, husband, or brother to help him, but what if they aren’t around?

    I guess a female firefighter might be a good answer but what if that isn’t an option?

    Since in today’s society it is worst to be culturally insensitive than it is to kill people, I would think that leaving her would be the best answer. (Not best in meaning a good answer but best meaning the lesser of two evils).

    And for the person above who said that any woman who has a husband who would be upset about a fireman who had to carry her out (which would mean he touched her) and “Allah Forbid” perhaps even have to give her CPR to save her life that she should leave that guy, well, guess what – SHE CAN’T! Divorce is forbidden in Islam so she is stuck with him.

  56. Zaraf

    Yeah, posting wasn’t working for me either 😛 lol

  57. Zaraf

    Something that many people mistake about Islam is that it is just a whole bunch of hard, and rigid rules that have no exceptions. The fact is, that these rules are for our well being, and dire need overcomes all rules. If you are starving to death, and there is nothing else to eat except pork, then there is no sin upon you for doing so. However, God knows your intentions, and if you do it simply because you have no other choice, then He will not hold you accountable for it.

    This is what the example our fireman friend mentioned. The Muslim woman laying unconscious in a burning building….there is nothing wrong with picking her up and rushing her out. Say even if she was laying there naked. The fireman’s intentions aren’t to have sex with her but instead to save her life, and if he can safely and quickly grab something to cover her (like a sheet nearby), he should do so, but the priority is in saving her from that building. Don’t try to give Islam this image of “You dishonored me, so now I’m going to kill you.”. Everything has its own circumstances, and God looks at everything individually and judges accordingly. But that being said, there are a general set of rules to be followed, and again, God knows our intentions, so He knows what you were thinking when you did something.

    John, you are asking about this whole “Muslim man can marry non-Muslims, but a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man.” and if this is true or not, and an explanation.

    Yes, this is true. A Muslim man is allowed to marry a person from the “People of the Book”, meaning, Jews or Christians. A Muslim woman is only allowed to marry a Muslim man.

    Now, people might say “This is discrimination”, but you have to think about this for a minute. One of the factors involved is that “What will the children grow up believing?”. If the husband is a Muslim, and the wife is a Jew or Christian, then chances are the children will follow Islam. However, there is no guarantee in this, so even for Muslim men, marrying outside of Islam is discouraged. Muslim men cannot marry outside of the People of the Book. Meaning, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans, Buddhists, etc.

    If the wife is Muslim, and the husband is non-Muslim, then the husband might pressure the wife into leaving her faith, and the children will most likely not grow up as Muslims.

    God gave us practical solutions for everything. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but the rules are for the majority. In most cases, the husband has more authority/power than the wife. Regardless of culture/time. You can try to argue this, but don’t bother, cause its true. This doesn’t mean the husband is superior, but rather, he has more responsibility.

    In any case, Muslims (both male and female) are encouraged to marry only Muslims. And unless they have really very little care for their faith, or their afterlife, then they will stick to marrying Muslims.

    Even the best non-Muslim will still be leading you towards Hellfire with their beliefs.

    Also, the issue wasn’t that Babar’s daughter was studying with a non-Muslim, but the fact that he was a male. Even if it had been a Muslim male, that would have been inappropriate. And for Fatima, it would be the same if it were a Muslim girl as opposed to a non-Muslim girl. The point is that he/she is alone with the boy/girl.

    There is more to this life than just trying to maximize your own personal happiness.

    Luke, where did you hear that divorce is forbidden in Islam? It certainly isn’t encouraged, but every now and then, circumstances will arise where divorce is necessary.

  58. Canadian Christian

    Is it any contact that forbidden or is it skin to skin contact? Fatima gave Fred that jolt to his back by putting potholders on her hands and then grabbing him on his chest.

    I’ve been in stores where the women at the cash registers appeared to be Muslims, and when giving me my change, their fingertips would touch my palm, however so slightly. There are probably some Muslims who would find even that level of contact to be inappropriate, while others would take a practicality standpoint, and even others might think that there’s nothing wrong with it.

    If anything, this forum has been very good for showing that Muslims are human beings with the same flaws and frailties as everyone else.

  59. Shazia

    Hello and Salaams to all

    >

    There is no question if its a case of life endangerment, then you act to save the person.

    There are thousands of Muslim doctors, nurses, paramedics, physiotherapists in the US and Canada. They all treat their patients of both sexes.

    Rayyan even portrayed that very clearly in this episode when she bandaged the fireman’s hand in her clinic and then also examined his ankle.

    There are thousands more in many professions which may require physical contact and they do it, even in Muslim countries (with the exception of Saudi and Afghanistan).

    Islam does NOT say there should be no contact between the sexes at all but that it be limited to that which is necessary, so a handshake would be inappropriate but treating a sick person/rescuing someone is permitted. Indeed, not to do so would be a HUGE sin.

    When there were battles in the days of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him), Muslim women could be found on the battlefield tending to the wounded and nursing them thereafter.

    Accidentally touching is also not a sin. Islam does not envision a society of “apartheid of the sexes” and the model portrayed in Saudi and Afghanistan is totally wrong.

    >

    Whoever has suggested this, I hope they were being sarcastic. If they really think cultural insensitivity is a greater evil than leaving someone to die, they need their head examined.

    If anyone did this for real, it would not only be unIslamic but inhumane and I would hope they would be charged for murder and if they did try to use a defense of “cultural sensitivity”, it would be thrown out of court.

  60. Shazia

    Regarding the firefighter’s question:

    There is no question if its a case of life endangerment, then you act to save the person.

    There are thousands of Muslim doctors, nurses, paramedics, physiotherapists in the US and Canada. They all treat their patients of both sexes.

    Rayyan even portrayed that very clearly in this episode when she bandaged the fireman’s hand in her clinic and then also examined his ankle.

    There are thousands more in many professions which may require physical contact and they do it, even in Muslim countries (with the exception of Saudi and Afghanistan).

    Islam does NOT say there should be no contact between the sexes at all but that it be limited to that which is necessary, so a handshake would be inappropriate but treating a sick person/rescuing someone is permitted. Indeed, not to do so would be a HUGE sin.

    When there were battles in the days of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him), Muslim women could be found on the battlefield tending to the wounded and nursing them thereafter.

    Accidentally touching is also not a sin. Islam does not envision a society of “apartheid of the sexes” and the model portrayed in Saudi and Afghanistan is totally wrong.

    Regarding this comment:

    Since in today’s society it is worst to be culturally insensitive than it is to kill people, I would think that leaving her would be the best answer. (Not best in meaning a good answer but best meaning the lesser of two evils).

    Whoever has suggested this, I hope they were being sarcastic. If they really think cultural insensitivity is a greater evil than leaving someone to die, they need their head examined.

    If anyone did this for real, it would not only be unIslamic but inhumane and I would hope they would be charged for murder and if they did try to use a defense of “cultural sensitivity”, it would be thrown out of court.

  61. Max

    “If they think cultural insensitivity is a greater evil than leaving someone to die, they need their head examined.”

    Society needs its head examined.

    But that is why the statement “liberalism is a mental disorder” is so accurate.

    But unfortunately it is true. A guy can shoot up a mall full of innocent shoppers and little outrage is expressed.

    But if someone dare uses the “N word” or any word that might be unrelated but sound like it or if some lady calls someone a Faggot (I refuse to make that word a banned word) all heck breaks loose.

    That is where we are at in this time in society. Saying something insensitive produces far more outrage than out and out murder.

  62. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    AaliaCanadian:

    “well here was the message i was trying to put earlier but this stupid page kept coming up telling me “you have already typed a comment” or something…”

    Something must be up with this blog?? Your message never materialized outside of what is above…

    Someone else posted a link, either to this topic or another, and it never came up as well. Something about wife beating??

    Maybe this ole gray mare is just a computer dummy and is missing a link or two to read these comments??

    JDsg: Thank you, your link did go through.

    Monitors: What’s up?? Is there a problem here or is it just me and my lack of computer skills?

    Luke: You’re hilarious. Divorce forbidden in Islam:)?? That’s too funny.

    Please give specifics for references to this understanding of yours.

    Qur’an, chapter 4;verse 128: “If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them it they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves;…”

    There are several more verses pertaining to divorce if you or anyone else is interested.

    There are tons of divorced Muslims throughout the world.

    BTW: It was against the LAW in Ireland for women to obtain a divorce for YEARS.

    It wasn’t until 27th February 1997 that divorce has been lawful in Ireland.

    Injustices to humankind happen all over the world, they come in all shapes and sizes, colors, religions (taken out of context) etc.

    Humankind can be so unkind.

    It is up to us as individuals, to choose whether we will be ‘just’ to one another or not.

    Governments/dictators, bad/nasty/evil people who claim to be this or that, etc. have screwed it up for so long now we’ve become desensitized to human suffering and injustices.

    The pork (ok to eat) reference:

    Qur’an; chapter 2; verse 173:
    “He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, adn the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name has been invoked besides that of God; But if one is forced by necessity, nor trangressing due limits, Then is he guiltless. For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

    So, as Zaraf pointed out, pork is allowed for Muslims to eat in times of desperation, i.e.; famines, wars, etc. It is not an easy thing for Muslims to do, but is permissible.

    The explanation behind this is that God gave us life, we are here to live it, if we are jeopardized in any way, (famine for example) we are encouraged to utilize what means are available to us (eating pork) to survive.

    This stands for other living creatures, human, animals, plants, our planet…as well.

    Muslims believe they are caretakers (as do many other religions/peoples) of God’s Blessings of life on earth.

    (Qur’an: chapter 2; verse 30: “Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.”…”

    (Take care of your family, your neighbor, ‘mother’ earth…)

    If a male firefighter (Muslim or not) needs to save a Muslim woman from a fire, or any other tragedy (car accident/paramedic’s help) it is a must.

    Qur’an: chapter 5; verse 32: “… And if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people…”

    Therefore, to save a life of one human being is akin to saving all of mankind, no matter what religious beliefs/non beliefs the person holds.

    Common sense prevails, Alhumdulillah.

    Salam to All –

  63. John

    I’m glad you’re choosing to ignore societal outrage. That’s how we make progress. Like all the people in our history who ignored the vast societal outrage over statements like “I want to marry this person of a different race” or “I want to vote, even though I am a woman” or “I don’t think slavery is right”. And boy, did those statements cause outrage at the time!

    More on topic, I have a non-religious friend who was recently doing business with a local Muslim businesswoman. After their transaction was completed, he automatically reached out to shake her hand, forgetting the no-contact rule. She clasped her hands together, smiled sweetly and said “Sorry, I cannot.” He said “Oops, I forgot”, and they concluded their business. No one was insulted or upset, and they continue to have a good business relationship. (Although my friend says that not shaking hands on a deal feels awkward to him.)

    I think these forums, as well, demonstrate that it is possible to have informative exchanges on even sensitive topics, if people don’t come in with preconceived notions or a chip on their shoulder, and are willing to not take insult where no insult is intended.

    I’m not a Muslim, but I like the Muslim greetings I hear on Little Mosque. The word “Salaam” means peace, does it not? How does the greeting actually translate? “Peace” seems a good way to say hello and goodbye.

  64. John:

    The full greeting is “salam alaikum,” which means “peace be upon you.” The reply is “walaikum salam” which means “and upon you be peace.” You’re right, it is an excellent way to say hello and goodbye because it is both a greeting and a prayer for the person.

  65. Zaraf

    Yes, the salam is a beautiful greeting, which is why it bothers me that we rarely hear the cast saying it on this show. More often than not, I’ve heard people not greeting the person at all, or saying something like “Hey” or “Hi”. The salam is a far superior greeting to “Hey”.

    One interesting thing I often find is that non-Muslims perceive Islam to be a religion composed of “Don’t do this, and don’t do that”. Basically, everything is prohibited, except for these few allowances. However, this is quite untrue.

    Islam is more of a “everything is permissible, except for these things which are harmful.”

    Keep in mind, humans have very limited vision. We cannot see beyond our eyes. So for us to say that something that has been made forbidden doesn’t make sense and therefore shouldn’t be followed is quite a shallow way of thinking.

    Imagine you have a young son. You tell your son “Do not put your fingers in the electrical outlet.” Now, do you expect the child to fully understand and comprehend the reasoning behind these instructions before he obeys them? Or do you expect him to obey you regardless of the level of understanding? It doesn’t matter if the young boy understands the situation or not, but if he puts his fingers in the socket, he will be harmed.

    So in the same sense, God has given us certain instructions. We can speculate on why we think God has told us things, but we can never say for certain, unless we’re directly told. You’ll hear Muslims saying “Pork is forbidden because the pig is a dirty animal.” Sure, that ‘could’ be true, but maybe there is another reason. There could be many other reasons which God alone knows, and so he gives us instructions to avoid the harm.

    This whole issue about contact between the sexes is one that is very lax in the West, but Muslims take it very seriously. Why? Because we are told by God that this is something to watch out for. Anything that leads to greater sins should also be avoided. Holding hands with a girl (whom you are not married to), dating, kissing, etc may all seem harmless, but what is it leading towards? It eventually leads to the greater sins, such as adultery/fornication.

  66. Zaraf

    I’d like to narrate to you all a very interesting story that illustrates this concept very well. It’s quite long, so please bear with me 🙂

    This story comes from Jewish tradition, but is consistent with Islamic understandings as well.

    There were two brothers who were going to be heading out to war, but they had an unmarried sister who would have been left behind alone (apparently their parents were deceased). So the two brothers though about who they could possibly leave their sister behind with, and they came up with the idea to leave her with the head rabbi.

    So they went to the rabbi and asked him if he would take care of their sister while they were gone. The rabbi was reluctant to do so, saying that if they left her with him, it would entice him towards sin. They pleaded with the rabbi, and he finally agreed that the girl would stay in a small house next to the monastery. To avoid contact with her, the rabbi would leave food on the steps of the monastery, and the girl would come and get the food, and go back to her house.

    Satan then whispered into the mind of the rabbi, “What are you doing? Leaving the food on the steps of the monastery? When she comes to retrieve the food, other men might see her!” The rabbi thought, “Ok, well I’ll leave the food on her doorstep then. No harm in that.” So he began to leave food on the doorstep of her house. After awhile doing that, Satan came and whispered to him, “When she opens the door and picks up the food, some men might still see her. You need to go and put the food in her house.” The rabbi was reluctant to do this, but then decided to do it, since the girl would be in the other room. After all, it made sense, right?

    After doing that for awhile, Satan came and said “What kind of a man are you? She is here all alone, with no one to talk to, and you just silently leave the food and go away. At least say something to her before you leave.” The rabbi thought about this, and decided to talk to her from outside of her room. But since she was behind a closed door, he would have to yell, and she would yell back to him. “Satan then came to him and said, “You both are yelling, so why don’t you make it easy and go into her room and talk to her with ease?” This made sense, so the rabbi decided to do it.

    Over some time, the rabbi began spending more and more time talking with her. A few words became a few minutes, which became a few hours. Before he even knew where he was, the rabbi had committed fornication with the girl. The girl then later told him that she was pregnant, and now the rabbi didn’t know what to do. When the baby was born, the rabbi was in an extreme sense of anxiety. Satan came to him and said “If the two brothers find out what you did, they are going to kill you. It is best to get rid of the evidence, so kill the baby.” The rabbi went and strangled the baby and killed it. Satan then came and said to him, “Do you think the girl will stay quiet about this to her brothers? She will tell them what happened and they will kill you!” The rabbi then went and killed the girl too, and buried both the girl and their dead baby in the room the girl was staying in.

    When the brothers came back, the rabbi told them that their sister had become very ill in their absence and passed away. He then led the two brothers to a fake grave he had made and told them this was the grave of their sister. Being the rabbi, the brothers trusted his word, and went home.

    During the night, Satan came to one of the brothers in his dream and said to him “Did you believe the rabbi in what he said about your sister? The truth is that he lay with your sister, and then murdered both the child and her. The proof of this is that the grave he showed you is empty, and the real grave is in the room the girl was staying in.” When the brother woke up, he mentioned the dream to the other brother, who replied that he had the exact same dream. Being suspicious of this, they went to check the grave of their sister. When they dug up the grave, they found it to be empty. They went to the room, and found both the body of their sister, and a small baby in her arms. Confirming what they had been told in their dreams. They had the rabbi arrested who confessed to the crime. They were leading him away towards the executioner, and Satan appeared in a physical form to the rabbi. Satan said to the rabbi “I was the one who led you with small steps to where you are now, and I am the only one who can help you now! So if you want my help, prostrate yourself to me!” Without thinking, the rabbi bowed down to Satan. Satan then laughed and said “Thank you very much.” and disappeared. The rabbi was then executed, dying having just bowed down to Satan.

    If you think about this story, it is quite profound. If Satan had originally come to the rabbi and said “Bow down to me”, there is no way he would. But with small steps, Satan led the rabbi to his demise, and even dying as a Satan-worshiper.

    Remember, Satan is patient, and leads people to destruction with baby steps. Be wary of those baby steps, for they lead to big steps.

  67. Ned

    I appreciate the “Slippery Slope” argument, but I would like to think that it is a very long way from talking to a girl to having sex with her.

    But it is your religion and I do respect it. I find it quite honourable that you would keep to your principles the way you do.

    But please don’t expect me to live like that. I will respect your ways, but don’t expect me to change mine. I for one believe that I am very principled even though I have talked to women even women in bikins without even the thought of raping her or having sex with her coming to mind.

    But then again, you look at what happens in today’s society and it is hard to argue about your ways. Sure I might be principled in this regard but unfortunately all to many are not. I might not practice your ways but I certainly understand the benefit of them.

  68. Ned

    I guess it is all about where one draws the line. You would draw it further away than I would.

    It is a tough call. I have to say though I don’t believe that rapes in Muslim countries are at an insignificant level. And then, even though the woman is the victim, the society then blame her for the sex even though it was forced upon her.

    And even worst she is arrested and whipped to death or stoned or something like that even though she wasn’t responsible for what happen.

    It is stuff like that that gives so many of us an “ugh” feeling when it comes to Islam.

  69. Canadian Christian

    Divorce was unlawful in Ireland for both men and women, not just women.

  70. Canadian Christian

    Isn’t it interesting that Jews use the greeting “Shalom aleichem” and they respond “Aleichem shalom.”

  71. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    Ned:

    “It is stuff like that that gives so many of us an “ugh” feeling when it comes to Islam.”

    That gives me an “ugh” and even more so as a Muslim too.

    I think that what it boils down to is education.

    Some of these horrible consequences of crimes directed towards women (and children) anywhere in the world, Muslim or not, is due mainly to lack of education, or culture and customs, and religious teachings taken out of context.

    I have Hindu friends, I don’t hear them raving of the benefits of burning widows alive, for example. No, they are just as sickened by this practice as many of us humans are…and it still happens, mainly in villages, but it still happens.

    What about domestic violence towards women/children in the U.S.?

    http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

    http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/

    And global facts:

    http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html#global

    Sure it’s lousy, it stinks. Anyone can be a victim, anytime, anyplace.

    Each one of us has to contribute in education, first, for ourselves, then others, our families, friends, and now globally we have opportunities never before available to us til now through the internet.

    No one is asking you to believe this way or that, I am not.

    What is important to me (and I am sure for many others :), is –
    you are listening, questioning, researching.

    Your path in life is exactly that, your path.

    I think that is what it is all about. You understanding me, me understanding you, and knowing we can respect each other’s beliefs without having a hissy-fit.

    Also:

    “I might not practice your ways but I certainly understand the benefit of them.”

    That was very nice to read, along with your statements of how you respect women. It’s like you wrote, not everyone does.

    Obviously someone in your life taught you (or self-taught) the meaning of self-respect and how to implement that in your daily life for yourself and respect towards others.

    Not all men (and women) are as strong as you, sorry to say.

    I kinda look at the ‘whys ?’of why Muslims mannerisms regarding the opposite sex are the way they are as a ladder.

    Some examples could be:

    One step up is the not touching the opposite sex (the dudes and dudettes of non-blood relation, generally).

    Another step is the one glance and that’s enough…

    One more is the modest dress (for both men and women).

    And the not being alone together, etc.

    Lots of these practices are very contrary to western etiquette (Look at me when I’m talking to you…) so it is a bumpy road. Misunderstandings do occur and will continue too.

    I may or may not shake the hand of another male (non-Muslim). I know plenty of other Muslim women who do the same. We access the situation and then decide.

    I don’t think that makes us ‘bad’ Muslim women…we all just deal with our practices differently than one another.

    There is a saying about the Mercy of God, that his Mercy proceeds his Anger (Bukhari).

    I don’t intentionally go out to do ‘bad’ stuff when I think of this…but when I think of this teaching I think of how human I am..so prone to messing up…but I get up the next day and try again…one step up the ladder (??), not sure, or two steps down (??) and then I think, ok, be hard on yourself, well, not too hard, after all I am only human, and be aware of God (what we call Taqwa- God-Consciousness) in all that I do in hopes/faith that Mercy will be directed my way, Inshallah.

    Sorry everyone, for the long post. It is really great reading them all. I hope it continues to be productive for everyone.

    Salam to All –

  72. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    Canadian Christian:

    True, divorce was unlawful in Ireland for both men and women, thank you for that correction.

    My point was not clear enough – that the emphasis was on women throughout society. Ireland was just an example.

    As history has shown us, for any culture, the people with less power, control, education, economic and social standing in their countries – are usually the women and children of society.

    Salam to All –

  73. Aalia Canadian

    that story was deep. we have to try and close the doors that Shaytaan opens, even if it means to do good. “Shaytaan will open 100 doors”…one example I know of a man who went to give Dawa’ah to a girl up in the North but he ended up commiting illegal relationship. SubhanAllah. anyways this is kind of a little late response to M: I forgot to mention that I only go by Qu’ran and Authentic Hadiths because there are sciences to them. Another thing I prefer over prescriptioned drugs are the Prophet’s (saws) medicine. Some may come up with surveys because they have a PhD. but I try and follow a man who was chosen by God to be a Prophet of Islam:) I can think for myself but with always remembering Allah’s (swt) laws (Shari’ah). Anways sorry I wondered away from the topic of the episode. I wonder what the next episode will be about? Was this the last show in the season? Btw its nice we can have a nice discussion (with the exception of Ned’s links to VERY misinformed videos on YouTube LoL). take care all

  74. Former Muslim

    Seen the show. This episode was probably the worst and disgusting piece of entertainment I’ve ever seen out of the worst sitcom I’ve ever seen. As a former muslim, I must say the show tries too much to bridge a cultural divide. However, that cultural divide is made much bigger with things like this. It’s not funny at all. In fact, its utterly hypocritical and silly. You can’t make silly comedies about serious issues facing the muslim world today. It makes me cringe. One example is when the Imam is lecturing the Rayaan about dating and physical contact. The funny (not funny haha) thing is that they are all acting flirty with each other and also in the same room together (which a man and a woman who are not married or related cannot do in Islam). Its almost like they’re boyfriend and girlfriend, but not getting any action. What’s the real difference anyway? I call that pure hypocricy. And you just know at some point in the show they’re gonna get married or something. Maybe at the end. Then you’ve got her father who’s married to a ‘canadian’ himself and lectures his daughter. The characters in the show are not following their religion, but it seems like they are. And whatever they follow seems pointless since they’re so inconsistent with their beliefs. Good comedies are mean and this one is not at all.
    The thing is. The stereotypes of muslims dislodged in that show are true more often than not. I havent seen an imam in my life without a beard, let alone wearing a t-shirt and jeans. And that actress who plays Rayyan is also a TV slut in the game show called “you bet your ass”. She’s probably become a muslim sex goddess for young teenage muslim boys. The general muslim community, especially in Canada is completely misrepresented. Its kind of saying “hey, we’re not so different. but we’re still different” which is ridiculous. In this particular episode, what did Rayan expect when she invited the fireman over? A nice dinner and a nod of appreciation afterwards? She’s a grown young lady living in a western society. How could she be so stupid and naive? And once again, she’s alone in a room with him. I mean, if you’re gonna sin, might as well go the whole nine yards and have some fun while you’re at it. Pray and repent afterwards. Its like a muslim I know who drinks and has claimed to have had pre-marital sex, but when I tell him I was a muslim and have left the religion he calls me names and says its a big sin. Then, condemns me to hell. That kind of hypocricy (but less blunt) is running rampant in this show and I cannot see why people dont see that. I dont think this show has recieved enough criticism because people are too afraid and all this ‘political correctness’. I think even non-muslims should be offended because it makes them come off as paranoid and intolerant.

    I have a comedy for you that’s better. A person called Muhammad in ancient times about 1400 years ago, who murders and exiles jews. Then, marries 9 year old girls and burns down and pillages people’s homes. Kind of like Borat. Too insensitive? Well, its what the muslim world needs. Not this load of yellow fever.

  75. Alice

    As a non-Muslim it does offend me how the non-Muslim citizens of the town are portrayed.

  76. Zaraf

    Former Muslim,

    I was agreeing with pretty much everything you said and appreciating your insight, until you went and said:

    “I have a comedy for you that’s better. A person called Muhammad in ancient times about 1400 years ago, who murders and exiles jews. Then, marries 9 year old girls and burns down and pillages people’s homes. Kind of like Borat. Too insensitive? Well, its what the muslim world needs. Not this load of yellow fever.”

    Wow…what an ignorant thing to say. I could respond to all of that, but I think it would fall on deaf ears (or eyes, in this case), so I don’t think I’ll waste my time, unless someone specifically asks.

  77. Former Muslim

    See thats exactly what I’m talking about. If you read actual history besides the Quran and Hadith, you’ll find that things are not as they seem. I knew someone or many people would jump on me for that ‘blasphemy’. The muslim world needs someone to wake them up. This sit-com offends everyone but the people who deserve to be offended to wake them up. How is the truth ignorant. And how is it that the ‘muslims’ are living in a completely different world than everyone else? How is that that muslims somehow believe that Islam was never spread by the sword and is a ‘peaceful’ religion where everyone else including actual historians agree that it was spread by the sword and brutally oppressive empire.

    You could respond to all of that. And I probably wouldve heard it all too cause I was raised as a muslim. I can honestly say I’ve heard all the arguments. But I’m not buying them. If you wanna justify something like the Prophet marrying a 9 yr old girl for ‘protection’ or ordering the execution of 700 jews because they were ‘disobedient’. Sorry not going to work, but thats the sad state of Islam today. And this show proves that people choose to ignore that sad state and watch a silly little sitcom which shows that oh …we’ve done nothing wrong… its the ‘white people’ who are all paranoid and intolerant.

  78. Aalia Canadian

    Uhhh okay so much for my “its cool that we are having a nice discussion” comment LoL “Former Muslim” I read your first comment and also agreed with you but when you started talking about the Prophet (saws), well thats not cool. Sorry that you left your Islam, I am not going to judge you because only One can do that, and I am not He (swt):) However as a former Catholic who came to Islam, I have to say that noone put a sword to my neck and forced me to be a Muslim. I found Islam to be full of peace and yup I knew ppl who called themselves Muslim but drank and did other haraam things. Anyways “Former Muslim” your right, this show is NOT funny, and the only ones I hear laughing are the non-Muslims. I never seen an Imam without a beard wearing t-shirts & jeans. This show only portrays the “Muslim by name” population, except for Baber (and Fatima), whose characters would be seen as most followers of Sunnah & Qu’ran as dedicated. I have to remind myself that this is just a show. However I REALLY wish that someone would make a show about ACTUAL Muslims in the West. Ya know, following Shari’ah and striving to do good deeds for the cause of Allah (swt). Every-day Muslims living in Canada, not a cast of hired fakes living in a pretend town. Oh well, wishful thinking. Take care all:)

  79. Aminah

    I think the show does a good job of trying to modernize reactions to real Muslim issues. And, judging from many of the posts I’ve read, it’s obvious that we all could use a little humor!!!

    There are Muslim scholars (and I am NOT one of them!!!!!) who deal with issues in context of the times without straying from the deen. For example, I have read that some scholars agree that “People of the Book” refers to all religions, for prophets have been sent to all corners of the world–we may not know the names of all of them, though surely most of us know about Abraham, Moses, Jesus, to name a few (May Allah’s peace and blessings be upon all of them). Islam means “submission to God,” so whether you are practicing Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion what is important is the intention in your heart and that you are submitting to God. Not to mention that the only race is the HUMAN race. (Those who are more knowledgeable than I–a recent convert–am, please correct me if I’ve portrayed Islam incorrectly, for I am still learning.)

    The show is definitely entertaining, and the characters are nutty–and it is a sitCOM, right?

    I sure hope it comes back for another season! (Eight episodes was it for this season, right?)

    And finally, Former Muslim, may you have light in your life and peace in your heart. We all must learn to live together without attacking one another (physically or verbally) when we disagree (and that includes attacking matters that people generally hold dear to their hearts–such as their religion).

    Asalamu alaikum to all!

  80. Skander

    One thing I’d like to point out, which I think has generally been demonstrated quite well by M, among other posters: There isn’t ONE SINGLE correct interpretation of Islamic law and practice. For example, while in Jordan, my very religious(but relatively liberal in her religion) language partner, who voluntarily wore hijab as an expression of her faith, shocked me on our first meeting by sticking our her hand and saying “salaam `alaykum.’ On the other hand, I certainly knew women who would not shake your hand(similar to John’s story). At lot of it is a personal preference, and a lot of what might be considered “Islamic” practice is often cultural rather than religious(and at times, in contradiction to Islamic law, a problem that has been debated seriously among 18th, 19th, and 20th century religious thinkers)

    In any case, I think this was a hilarious episode, and did a great job of showing the hypocrisy that often does inform a lot of these arguments- Amaar is more interested in keeping Rayaan single for his own sake rather than as part of his religious conviction, for example.

  81. Aminah

    There is an excellent non-Muslim author, Karen Armstrong, who does a beautiful job of telling the history of our beloved Prophet (pbuh). Try reading “Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet.” She also wrote an article for, I believe, TIME magazine immediately after 9/11 to help dispel the popular belief that Islam was spread by the sword. And I am currently working on her book, “A Short History of Islam.” If you are truly interested in a historical perspective, and especially from a non-Muslim source, I highly recommend her.

    Judaism and Christianity were also involved in warfare, were they not?

    Extremists exist everywhere. Misinterpretation runs rampant throughout any religion.

    I don’t think it hurts to shed a little laughter on Muslims (who, according to Amaar in the first episode, don’t have a sense of humor!). It obviously has opened up the doors to a little bit of curiosity and–for the most part–friendly debate.

    Peace to all!

  82. Zaraf

    Right….if we actually read “history”…you mean the history that was written by non-Muslims who are trying to show Islam as evil? You mean the teachings of historians who used sources from Europe, in a time when Europe was in the pits of the gutter?

    Was Islam spread by the sword? It could be argued both ways, but I choose to say “In a way”.

    Yes, Muslim armies came and conquered non-Muslim lands. The Muslims brought the rule of God to those lands. Did they force individual people to become Muslim? Nope. There is no compulsion in religion. If the Muslim armies came and conquered a land, the people in that land had 3 choices:

    1. Become Muslim
    2. Keep their religion, but pay the ‘jiziya”
    3. Leave those lands

    The jiziya was like a tax that was imposed on the non-Muslims. After all, the Muslims pay zakat, so why should there be a financial “advantage” to not being Muslim?

    The proof that Islam was very tolerant of those other religions is evident that today, we have Christians and Jews who have lived in the middle east for the last two thousand years. If the Muslims wanted to, they could have wiped out every single non-Muslim from those lands, but they didn’t.

    During the time of the Islamic empire, the Jews fled from the Roman empire and wished to be under the rule of the Islamic empire. Why? Because the Muslims ruled with justice and were tolerant. Unlike the Roman empire at the time where they were persecuted. Brutally oppressive? Ha! I think not. Don’t try to spread your Islam-hate before you get your facts straight.

    The purpose of Islamic jihad was not just to spread the message, but to allow the rule of God (shariah) to be dominant in a land. People had the choice to become Muslim if they wanted to. It was pretty much like “Ok, we’re taking over here, and we’re Muslims. If you want to become Muslim, you know where to find us.” In those times, the Muslims didn’t go around handing out pamphlets to the people. They came, took over, and many among the people would WANT to become Muslim. No force involved. We all know the result of that “Muslim” king in India (whose name eludes me at the moment) who tried to force all the Hindus and Sikhs to become Muslim, and look at the hate that it spawned….that hatred is on-going to this day. You don’t see that same effect in the middle east or north Africa, etc…because that didn’t happen there.

    So you mention Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) marrying a 9 year old girl for “protection”. I don’t know what kind of protection you are talking about, but that was hardly the reason. There are many reasons, valid reasons, for his marriage, but I would like to address something first.

    Its funny how you emphasize the whole “9 year old”. If you go and study sociology or anthropology, one of the first things you will learn is that one of the biggest mistakes you can make is to extend your own customs and norms upon other culture, especially those earlier in history.

    Today’s norm is that people of similar or close age get married. Back in those days, the age gap was hardly a factor at all. You emphasize the whole “9 year old” marriage, but did you just happen to forget that the very first marriage Prophet Muhammed had was when he was 25 years old, and he married the 40 year old Khadija? He married a woman old enough to be his mother, and it wasn’t an issue at all. And he remained married to only her, and only after her death did he remarry. If you are trying to paint Prophet Muhammed as a pedophile or a womanizer, then you are failing miserably. You don’t find many pedophiles who would marry women old enough to be their mothers, AND be happily married to them. The wives of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) were all jealous of Khadija because of how much Muhammed (pbuh) would remember her.

    If you looked at the Arab society at the time, no one blinked an eye at the fact that Muhammed (pbuh) married such a young girl. But there was an uproar among the Arabs when Muhammed (pbuh) married the ex-wife of his adopted son. This was considered a taboo, but there is no base for this in Islam. But you don’t see the Orientalists pointing at that marriage and saying “oMg! luk @ wut hE dId!”

    I don’t want to get into the details of the wisdom behind his marriage to Aisha (the 9 year old girl). Oh, and just for a note, Aisha did not consummate her marriage until AFTER she hit puberty. And that is another thing, back in those days, people were either children, or adults. And the defining point was puberty. So even if a child hit puberty at the age of 12, he/she was now considered an adult in the community. Very different from today, is it not? And you have the audacity to apply today’s standards to back then?

    Oh, and you mention the execution of 700 Jews because they were “disobedient”. An interesting word you used there, “disobedient”. However, a better word to use would be “treason”. Do you know what the penalty for treason in the USA is? Either the death penalty or life imprisonment. Those Jews plotted to kill the Muslims in Medina while the Quraish from Mecca were attacking. The Jews and the Muslims had before hand made an agreement that they had a mutual defense of Medina. The Jews broke that agreement, and after the siege on Media had been lifted, the Muslims turned to bring those Jews who had tried to stab them in the back to justice. It was then decided that the men among the Jews would be executed, and that number came to around 700.

    A ‘much’ different story when you don’t glaze over it with a word like “disobedient”, isn’t it?

    And to any Muslim who says “We’ve done nothing wrong, it’s the ‘white’ people who are the cause of our low state…” I personally am the first to say that it is the MUSLIMS’ fault that their are in a low state. The non-Muslims are simply taking advantage of a good situation. It is the Muslims who left their religion, took it for mockery, and abandoned various aspects of their faith. So God abandoned them. And until they return to their faith, they will not receive that full support from God the way they once did.

    So my apostate friend, don’t try to pull the wool over our eyes…because its not going to work.

  83. Brad

    Alice wrote:
    “As a non-Muslim it does offend me how the non-Muslim citizens of the town are portrayed.”

    I have to agree with this one. That town seems to have an unusually high population of intolerant people.

    Plus I’ve met a lot of dumbasses in my life and never found anyone who even came close to that DJ or the town redneck.

    On the topic of Baber being an extremist. When I saw the first episode or two, I might have called him that. Now I am rather feeling that he is more of a ‘traditionalist’. This makes his daughter the perfect counterpoint to his character.

    perhaps a bit of a metaphor of the Muslim culture trying to find its footing in western society.

  84. Former Muslim

    Dude, you’ve got your facts all wrong. I know my history enough. I’m not spreading ‘Islam-hate’, I’ve got nothing to gain from that. Sure, Islamic empires may have been slightly more tolerant than christian empires but that still doesnt excuse it. All your justifications I’ve heard before and they mean nothing to a non-muslim or a person who’s well educated. The ‘Dhimma’ and the ‘Jizya’ are in reference to specific periods of time. And I don’t call taxing non-muslims tolerant. Its discrimination. And for the non-muslims who were not forced to convert at the time, converted because they wanted to avoid this tax and also for business reasons as they were generally treated condescendingly as lower class and ‘immoral’ citizens. Much like the attitude of muslims today against non-mulims. So in a way, they were forced to convert due to fear etc… The empires were not really butterflies and rainbows at the time either, there was full literal application of Shariah law, which myself and many other people think is barbaric. I suggest you read up on your history not by journalists or islamic scholars, but by actual historians. I’ve spoken one-on-one to actual historians. The answers were always yes. And I also know that the vast majority of historians agree with this in their unbiased opinions, whatever their beliefs are. There is no real debate on this matter. So instead of acting all self-riteous, you could expand your knowledge a bit. Also look up the battle of vienna, where rapes and castrations took place.
    Okay, and I assume you also believe that Islam is universal since you defend it so much. If that is the case, then its a contradiction in terms to say that you cant apply other people’s cultural norms to your own. If Islam is all about context, then anything it says doesnt apply to today’s world since the conditions are totally different. To me, having read the Quran, Hadith and also history, it seems barbaric and backward. I know thats a very cliche thing to say, but thats my opinion. If you justify the prophet killing 700 jews for ‘treason’, I still do not buy it. It is a terrible thing to do nonetheless. Same applies to him marrying a 9yr old girl. If you’re gonna use ‘at those/that times/place’ argument, you must also conceede that Islam does not apply to the here and the now. And why is it that you bring up America? You think I support every law that America has in place? I don’t condone executing people for betrayal. Or choosing their own religion. Or adultery. Saying that, I dont think they’re nice things to do either.

    And you do know what the punishment for an apostate is and was dont you? Its death. And that is also the consensus of the scholars regardless of historical context. Where’s the basic human right to religious freedom? You can justify all the ‘seemingly barbaric’ aspects in Shariah law and islamic history. But once you argue that Islam is universal, that all goes out the window.

  85. Canadian Christian

    Maybe the fact that people here are saying that they don’t like the way the non-Muslims and Muslims are being portrayed is an indication that the show is actually helping to bridge a gap between separate communities. It’s often said that in a true compromise, neither side should be happy.

    I’m using compromise in terms of narrowing the rift in how two different communities (Muslim and non-Muslim) view each other. Nobody is expected to compromise their faith.

  86. Alice

    I though Aisha was six when he married her but he waited until she was nine to have sex with her.

  87. Alice

    The only accurate portrayals in the show that I see are Rev McGee and the SheMayor.

    Yeah, there are such losers like Rev McGee “leading” Christian churches today and there are people like SheMayor who would spend tax money to go on a useless trip to China.

  88. Alice

    I like Fred.

    I don’t see anything wrong with him. He is personally nice to Fatima.

  89. Alice

    Canadian Christian why do you think their is a big rift? I don’t really think there is.

    Perhaps there are a few misunderstandings but what you have to understand is that at least on our side our war is not against Islam or Muslims. Our war is against those who would use their association with Islam as a gathering point to plan and execute attacks against my people.

    Perhaps that is a fine distinction to you but look at it this way. When the English were fighting Ireland they didn’t see Catholics as their enemy but just those Catholics who were hiding behind the church as they planned their attacks.

    It’s the whole thing about not all Muslims are terrorists but currently most all terrorists are Muslims thing.

    So, no we don’t consider all Muslims as terrorists but we also should not just ignore the role Islam plays in the life of many who are.

    It is like what this video portrays.

  90. John

    I have to agree that the characters portrayed on the series can be a bit silly — but that’s true of all characters on all sit-coms. It’s a function of this form of entertainment — it provides amusement by exaggerating people’s foibles. I can’t think of a single sit-com that doesn’t do this. No one thinks that the silly characters on “Friends” is insulting to Jews or Christians in general, or puts those religions into a bad light.

    I think that because Little Mosque is about the only show on television that tries to depict everyday Muslims living their regular lives, that viewers want it to be all things to all people. And that’s understandable. Maybe if there were more real Muslim characters on serious drama shows, cop shows, medical shows, etc, then it would take some of the pressure off this little sitcom.

    peace

  91. Shazia

    Regarding the portrayal of non-Muslims in the shows, I would remind everyone there is only one Muslim scriptwriter on the team and the rest are all non-Muslim.

    As has been pointed out, many muslim are unhappy with the portrayal of Muslims in the show.

    You can please some of the people some of the time…

  92. Shazia

    By the way, Karen Armstrong’s books on Islam are a great introduction to it.

  93. binmugahid

    Well, they finally did it . The flirting has moved from anywhere but the mosque, to inside the prayer area inside the mosque.

    I mean, come on, I know you have a sitcom thing going on around here, but to suggest that two devout muslims would (Arguably flirt with each other) inside the mosque, right after a prayer is stretching it.

    You have to take the characters of Rayan and Ammaar somewhere, but please, location location location. Not inside the mosque.

    Yes, I do know that you only have 20 minutes, a deadline and probably stretched thin with writing material My guess, is that you will improve and make it better without making it worse. hehehe

  94. binmugahid

    Okay, who is this former muslim and why is he so bent out of shape, if you know about islam, don’t like, or hate it, by all means. Go, this is a forum to talk about the TV sitcom, I don’t see you making any progress doing much of anything here. I was waiting for people to reply to you, but then again, what the heck, I’ll swing at it:

    Zaraf, thanks for your deligent replies to the so called former muslim, I dare say he was never one to begin with. Be that as it may, or be not that, and assume that he is a former muslim, whatever he says about himself is his own business.

    I will not honor him by speaking to him, but rather I will speak at him:
    First of all, whoever commits treason in any country, gets either life in prison or death. No country ever says “We will execute traitors but only if there arent’ that too many of them”, this is ubsurd and sounds a lot like a crybaby who is upset by the fact that one jewish tribe committed treason and all those engaged in that act were put to death as per the law of the land.

    What were we supposed to do, let them go because they are jews, and apply the law elsewhere, isn’t that discrimination?

    Oh, and by the way, I don’t really think you’re a former anything. and Man, we are discussing a Sitcom here, stay on point will ya? Stay on point.

    Zaraf, Much Love to you man, much love.

  95. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    binmugahid:

    Too funny!!

    I was thinking the same thing last night;).

    “I don’t really think you’re a former anything.”

    Exactly!!:)

    Just because so-called ‘Former Muslim’ rants about this and that regarding Islam/Muslims/LMOTP, does not a former Muslim make.

    Anyone can claim to be whoever they are on these comments posted…do a bit of research here and there…make up their own character…

    There are so many people out there full of hate and fear towards; (take your pick/add your own)

    Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, Europeans, Blacks, Asians, the list goes on and on, regrettably.

    So-called ‘former Muslim’ could be one of those sorry dude/ettes who cruises the internet for sites with Islamic themes.

    You know, those lame arse Islamicwatchsites full of angry, revengeful souls.

    And after reading the diverse views from these comments, the respect given to one another (for the most part), an open, honest diaglogue going on….

    Well then, so called ‘former Muslim’ is in a tizzy and wants to dent a link in the chain of this productive blog.

    That, plus the fact the series is even out there for production in the first place, that people are liking the show.

    I mean really, if we like the show but don’t always agree on the plots, etc. but are actually discussing it here, then that is counter to the tormented soul of ‘former Muslim’s goal – to spread havoc and ill feelings towards one another.

    I would like to request that the moderators of this blog seriously consider monitoring ‘former Muslim’ more closely. I don’t believe ‘F-M’ holds any merit and should not be abusing this forum with his/her hate speech.

    Since I live in the States, I am not familiar with the series beginning and end…if episode 8 is the final one for this first season?

    If it is – please do not close down this blog until the new season begins – let it flow through the summer with continued debate/discussion in a healthy manner, whaddya say?

    Thanks for listening.

    Salam to All –

  96. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    P.S. And my thanks to Zaraf too, for his responses.

    I think they are not so much for the reading ‘pleasure’ of ‘F-M’ but to educate other readers who may be interested in continuing their education of Islam/Muslims.

    JAK Zaraf :).

    Salam to All –

  97. John

    Quick answer to a question a few people have asked: Yes, there were only eight episodes in the first season of Little Mosque, so we’ve seen them all. However, the series is so hugely popular here in Canada that the CBC has agreed to pick it up for a second series. I’m not sure how many episodes are going to be in that series, or when it starts.

    peace

  98. Aalia Canadian

    Something to add about the tax that non-Muslims paid for living in an Islamic country. Some may think it is discrimination, but here is a reason why it was so. Not only was it in the Qu’ran but when the Muslims went to battle for an Islamic cause, the non-Muslims stayed home (because why would they fight for an Islamic cause anyway?). Well, doesnt it make sense to you? If you were living in a village and all the Muslim men went out to war to fight, while your sitting at home, thats not really fair. So the least you can do is pay a tax, while men are going out to die. There are other reasons but this is the only one I can think of at this time. Bye bye:)

  99. Canadian Christian

    Alice, I never said big rift, I just said rift. And I stand by what I say in that there is a divide in how Muslims, especially those in primarily Muslim countries, see western civilization which is primarily Christian, and how Christians view Muslims.

    You’re right that there’s no war with Muslims, but there’s a war with the Muslims who are attacking the west in the name of their religion. But because of this, it’s brought Islam into the spotlight even more so than in the past, and all people here tend to see are the differences rather than the similarities.

  100. Former Muslim

    Oh now you guys are taking refuge in calling me a liar and ridiculous accusations. Is that your only hope now? Instead of engaging in a civil discussion, you accuse people of being liars? Sorry but you people are hopeless. I’ve heard all your ridiculous arguments before. Not buying it, sorry. A crime doesnt stop becoming a crime with that kind of justification. It is still slaughter and genocide. And Muhammad, in today’s terms, is still a pedophile. It also provides the muslims today to justify what they’re doing. Stop being so apologetic. I dont ‘hate’ muslims, most of them are wonderful people who only want peace for themselves and others. But when faced with questions like these they contradict themselves by saying “yes, but…” and being apologetic. And I certainly dont want to spread hate. And thus far nobody has responded to me saying that the punishment for apostates is death. I just dont like the religion of Islam (nor any other religion for that matter but especially not Islam). There is a difference. And why should I like it since the prescribed punishment for me in it is execution. No muslim who has found out that I am an apostate and then tried to kill me. And I think its wonderful that despite their religion, they can still manage to be good enough human beings.
    Again, I’m NOT trying to spread hatered of any sort and nor do I look around for sites with Islamic themes. I dont really care. I was raised amongst muslims and the last thing I wanna do misrepresent the muslim community and promote hateful speech.
    Contrary to the beliefs of most muslims, I think the problem is Islam and not Muslims. Muslims are fine but when faced with this religion that they have to struggle and grapple to come to terms with, they become confused.
    Now you may be asking how this all relates to the show that is the topic. Well, it does and it doesnt. The characters, especially Rayyan is in a constant struggle with her religion and the western world she grew up in. Also her mother and her father have to face these issues. The swimming pool episode is also a good example. Being a seemingly intelligent woman, she’s holding on to her religion but doesnt really know why. She actually does almost kiss the guy, but decides her religion is more important and throws him out rudely. Is it fear of the hellfire that makes her not do it? Or is it promise of a heaven with rivers of milk? How is it that she weighs what is important to her? Her father, having married a ‘western’ woman also seems to be ‘in-between’ who isn’t really Islamic himself but preaches it. Her mother is clearly just a muslim by name. In fact, she seems the least bit interested in the religion and following it. Saying that, the huge clash of Islam and the west is also misrepresented. Its much more complex than the simple “us vs. them” mentality portrayed in the show. Islam becomes the focal point of a situation comedy intead of a backdrop. Islam is forced to become the issue instead of the situation presented itself. And in a bad way. Because it doesnt really spark debate and contraversy. It just makes non-muslims think “huh, so you people dont date, eh?”. And then a muslim would respond “you dont have to taste the cake before knowing its gonna be good” (which is a line that Rayyan uses in the show to justify not dating in another episode). The fact that the characters are muslims should not be the basis for this show. It should just be a fixed parameter that doesnt inspire a situation but have an affect the situations that are created among other things. Is it the fact that they’re ‘bad’ muslims? Well, they seem like perfectly decent human beings to me who want peace for themselves and others as well. So, really my question is: what is the creator trying to prove here. Whats the agenda? Because since Islam seems to be the focal point, there has to be an agenda. Where does she think the problem lies? The ‘shallow’ non-muslims? the ‘bad’ muslims? Since she’s already failed miserably to bridge the gap and probably created a bigger one. Why is that? Because the simple fact is that there are lots of muslims who date and there are lots of muslim women who would put on a swimsuit and go to a mixed beach. All muslims are misrepresented and generalized in the show. They seem to all have the same belief systems, which is completely untrue in real life. Especially about Islam, there are many many different viewpoints and many different types of muslims. Lots of muslims drink alcohol and eat pork as well. They do not practice the same way and they do not believe the same things. Why doesnt the creator explore the conflicts and misundertandings within Islam like the rifts between shi’as and sunnis? It’s simply not as simple as ‘muslims vs. non-muslims’. Zarqa Nawaz completely ignores the concept of individuality, which makes the characters themselves shallow and linear, without individual choice and constrained by their religion in shackles. This leaves her with no choice but to follow a linear story line and the exact same formula for every single 22 minute show.

    And about books: I havent read Karen Armstrong’s book and nor do I want to. But I do know that she’s a former nun and now a reporter or a journalist or something with no real historical credentials. Mainstream history books by journalists and internet are not reliable sources for accurate historical info. If you want real historical books, the reliable ones are usually ones published by university presses and written by historians and university history proffssors who have done extensive research on the subject. I know this because I have been a history student. I can’t think of any particular books that come to my mind at this moment. But if you want to learn more about Islamic history or history of the middle east, the only name right now I can think of is Ira Lapidus. There are many others also. If you’re not much for reading books, I suggest you go talk to an actual historian one-on-one in a country where there is an established culture of free speech. I am sure that all you muslims will be very surprised when you do.

  101. Aminah

    I believe that Karen Armstrong was a literature professor for several years and may still be a part-time professor. Literature and history are intertwined, of course.

  102. Former Muslim

    no. they’re generally not. there’s history of literature. but this is something completely differnt.

  103. Whoa, whoa, whoa–bash religion all you want, FM, but literature–back off.

    Just kidding. The purposes of history and literature are very similar–to teach us what behind us, within us and ahead of us; and the best approaches to situations that we personally have never dealt with before.

    Being a literature student, I fall into Stephen Colbert’s satiric playground of “truthiness”–that is, I’m not always concerned with facts. The difference between the Light Side of Truthiness and the Dark Side of Truthiness is that the Light Side is personified by literature and takes stories, all false, and makes them more true than actual fact, while the Dark Side uses Truthiness for a political or social agenda.

    History will never be perfect. It’s just that none of us were there. None of us were alive before 1850, and we have to trust each other and the historians of the past. What creates that trust? More books read? Pieces of paper signed by deans? Established connections and friends? Money, even?

    Both history and literature are to create understanding. And so is this show! She is trying to show a spectrum. Isn’t it human tendency to personify the other as being of one mind, one look, one attitude? There will be people who will look at a woman, like Rayyan, in a hijab (headscarf) and they may assume she is like Laila’s “Islamabot,” or a terrorist, or oppressed, or a virgin, or ugly, or pious, or whatever. Some will promote only the negative stereotypes of the look, others only the positive stereotypes. Of the hijabi characters, we can see Rayyan, who is a feminist; Fatima, a traditionalist yet temperate; and Yassir’s mother, who is really something. They are all different, and we given names, faces, and attitudes, rather than just a scarf. I think that’s something worth watching.

  104. Serenity

    I was a little disappointed that Jeff was portrayed as a complete idiot. It would have been more interesting if he had really wanted to convert and was sincerely liked in her. That they had him rush to physical contact with her the second he was alone with her was silly but then this is a comedy. It seems unrealistic that anyone would be so clueless. Also it would have been interesting to see how this would really play out more accurately. It kind of leaves everyone hanging. Wondering how do you get married? I don’t know why the fireman was just not invited to a family dinner if they wanted to get to know each other. Would that have been O’K? Obviuously he would need to convert if he was serious about her. And is this the first time that Yasir has taken anything regarding Islam seriously?

  105. Serenity

    Rayyan is the most likable character and probably most like the show creator.

  106. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    ‘Former Muslim:’

    Sweet….ya took the bait…..I love fishin’!!!…(It’s a joke…if ya have trouble swallowing it, digest a chill pill;)

    Let’s say you really were once a Muslim….

    I once was a Christian…and I don’t feel the urge/need/hatred as you do to berate the faith or it’s followers in blogs, or in public, or private, or wherever…or to berate any other faith or followers or those who profess no faith, via the internet, etc.

    Your comments read like a flashing ‘DANGER’ neon sign of immaturity…you could use therapy child;).

    As for your rejection of Karen Armstrong:

    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong )

    (It’s wikipedia, there’s tons more out there to choose from)

    Really, how snobbish. You only read this professor or that one….because you were once a ‘history student’.

    How narrow minded you read; to reject an author because they don’t meet your high and mighty standards?

    You wrote:

    “Instead of engaging in a civil discussion, you accuse people of being liars? Sorry but you people are hopeless. I’ve heard all your ridiculous arguments before.”

    Explain to me how ‘civil’ your tone is above? You claim to want to engage in a ‘civil discussion’ yet resort to insults: ‘you people are hopeless.’

    Zaraf, and others, did respond to your comments, with dignity, respect, and civility. If it had been any closer, it woulda bit ya on the butt;). You’re just mad cuz they were civil….

    You contradict yourself over and over again.

    But that’s ok, really, I’m not intentionally being nasty or mean when I write that, or any of this comment.

    You have a long road to travel on and right now it’s reads as though it is full of hatred, anger, frustration, stress, anxiety, etc. And who better to direct it to than to Muslims on a blog?

    It must be hell for you to wake up every morning with that pit of anger burning in your stomach.

    Here are some interesting thoughts that Sidney Poitier shares with readers in his book, “The Measure of a Man.” (pg. 131)

    It reads like you, of sorts, “I’ve seen reports on the news about parents whose children were murdered, and these parents sought out the murderers to get to know them and try to help them, which is astounding until you think it through. In essence, what else could they do?
    Sure, they could take revenge, destroy the world. But that’s the worst hurt a person could have: to see his or her child senselessly murdered. So there are people who find a way to turn even that horrible, destructive energy into something positive. It comes down to changing the way you look at a particular injustice.”

    You think of Islam as unjust or any other religions as so.

    In place of that horrible, destructive energy you feel, I hope you get to the stage of acceptance and turn your anger into something positive.

    i.e., It’s your attitude…..

    You are correct, there are lots of Muslims figuring this or that out but you also read the same; as an individual who is struggling, grappling, confused.

    And again, your contradictions:

    “nor do I look around for sites with Islamic themes. I dont really care.”

    Then why are you posting comments to this one? Is it really because of the series, LMOTP, or is it to gain your 15 minutes of internet fame?

    ‘Former Muslim,’ you’re a treasure;)!!!

    I hope your next (or first) therapy session goes well:)!!!

    Salam to All –

    (All includes ‘Former Muslim;), too.)

  107. Alice

    Baber is the most likable one as he is the most principled character on the show.

  108. Serenity

    Former Muslim, there is a time/place aspect to the events you allude to. Everyone was shocked when a 9 year old becomes a bride right? Of course they’re weren’t because it was in context. You captured nothing from the spirit of the teachings? I don’t buy it that you pin all the problems on Islam rather than culture and other factors.

  109. Serenity

    Babar is likable because he is compassionate. Fatima seems just as principled but with a dash of wisdom thrown in. Send your daughter to away boarding school? Really.

  110. Alice

    Now if you want to talk about the most unlikeable characters, well I can’t decide between McGee or the SheMayor.

    McGee is a pathetic man who is insincere about his faith, who has contempt for the member of his church, and who will cave on every principle he has or perhaps the reason he caves so much is because he really have no principles.

    The SheMayor would spend important city funds on a worthless trip to China that would not serve the town at all, and only served as a free vacation trip for her.

  111. Alice

    Fatima sold out her principle when she decided to cater the gay so called wedding.

  112. Alice

    Serenity, he married her when she was SIX.

    Here are the facts.

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

  113. Alice

    I typed it wrong:

    “McGee is a pathetic man who is insincere about his faith, who has contempt for the member of his church, and who will cave on every principle he has or perhaps the reason he caves so much is because he really have no principles.”

    McGee is a pathetic man who is insincere about his faith, who has contempt for the member sof his church, and who will cave on every principle he has or perhaps the reason he caves so much is because he really has no principles.

    and,

    Fatima sold out her principles when she decided to cater the gay so called wedding.

    I never understood what made her do it. I guess it was pride in her cooking. And isn’t such a type of pride that would make her compromise her values a sin?

  114. Serenity

    McGee at least has some self awareness and honesty.

    Most of all I hate Sarah. She is completely unbelievable as a mother. She fails where it matters most with her family and her faith. I think they put her in to show the horrific situation you would be in if you married a western woman.

  115. Alice

    He is hardly honest.

    He isn’t even a true Christian anymore and just preaches because he knows no other profession.

  116. Serenity

    Alice, yes she was six for the ceremony but I think that nine seems to be the true start due to the consummation. I am not an expert by any means on Islam but I really think that he wanted women to be respected and I do think that he respected women. I think his first wife is such a great example of a strong woman and I think that choice says a lot.

  117. Serenity

    Alice,

    On Fatima, wow, to condemn her for being kind to the gay couple. If you have to waver or slip, that would be the way to go. I don’t think she’s perfect but then who is. But she does seem commited to her faith and to has a better relationship with her child. I don’t think that Babar always hits the mark in that regard. I’d rather he be potrayed more respectfully though. He’s not extreme just more traditional. I don’t know why father’s cannot be potrayed as strong and admirable anymore.

    On McGee, “He isn’t even a true Christian anymore and just preaches because he knows no other profession.” I missed this part.

  118. Alice

    You can just tell with McGee’s attitude. He must have at one time been committed to Christianity (or perhaps his mom pushed him into becoming a Reverend) but now it is strictly a job for him instead of a calling.

    The way he is always caving in shows that he doesn’t really have any true values to stand upon and therefore he isn’t really a Christian. If he was more people would be attending his church.

  119. Alice

    Why should Fatima be kind to the gay couple when they are sinning? I am not saying that she should be mean to them. She should do what she did at first. Tell them that she would not cater their wedding but say so in a nice way. Standing for your principles isn’t being “mean”. By being involved in the wedding, Fatima is participating in an abomination which is obviously wrong.

  120. Shazia

    Salaams and Peace

    I just posted a huge reply to Former Muslim but lost it. But M’s reply is much better than mine.

    I would add Karen Armstrong includes the historian recommended by Former Muslim, Ira Lapidus, in her list of suggested reading in the back of her book: Islam, A Short History. It is a great list covering all areas, the prophet, history, mysticism, philosophy, theology, Islam and modern world, islamic fundamentalism, Western response to Islam.

    She has studied for a doctorate which I am sure helped polish her research skills has written on diverse religious topics and now teaches at a college which specialises in the study of Judaism. As a self-described “feminist and freelance monotheist”, she can hardly be accused of being pro-Islam; yet Muslims and non-Muslims alike praise her books on Islam. Funny that, could it be Islam isn’t as bad as people think?

    To Former Muslim I will just say firstly, that the majority of Muslims are decent people BECAUSE of Islam, secondly reliable evidence and sources are everything to a historian so I am surprised you can confidently state “everyone else agrees…” without presenting any proof like surveys or interviews with the whole population of the world.

    My understanding is many non-Muslims, including “actual historians”, also disagree with this assertion about Islam (that it was spread by the sword and was oppressive). Of course, every individual has the right to choose which position to take but it should surely be an INFORMED choice.

    Secondly, CHILL OUT, its only a sit-com.

  121. Alice

    “I don’t know why father’s cannot be portrayed as strong and admirable anymore.

    It has to do with the Culture War.

    I believe specifically in the “Authoritative Personality” the book condemns strong fathers as being fascists.

  122. Serenity

    Fatima is nice to everyone even that radio guy. Sometimes you reach more people with kindness rather than scorn.

    A real Christian on the show would have been refreshing.

  123. Alice

    She wasn’t catering that so called “wedding” to be nice. She was catering it so that her competitor wouldn’t get the business?

    Is that a good reason to involve yourself in an abomination?

  124. Alice

    Why shouldn’t she be nice to the radio guy? He is a pretty cool fellow.

  125. Alice

    Fatima first said she wouldn’t cater the abomination but then when she found out that they were going with a competitor she said “I hate them (the competitor)” and decided to do it.

    And even if she was doing it to “be nice”, “being nice” is no reason to sin.

  126. Former Muslim

    To M:

    Very nice of you to use that condescending tone, especially when you used child. And used a long road ahead of you… when you dont have a clue what age group I fall into. Sorry but people jumped on me for my initial comment about Muhammad. I’m not preaching but defending. I’m not a muslim, nor am I grappling or confused. Hell, my concience is clear because I dont condone things like death for apostates and death for adulterers. Here’s a newsflash: my life aint full of hate but freedom and peace. And if there is a hell and I die and go to it, then I’d take my punishment with my head held up high.
    Sure, I been harsh and possibly too blunt. But I havent accused anyone of being a liar or called anyone names. And you’re lecturing me? What is this a psychological disection where you’re trying to judge me and put me in a cute little box labelled ‘apostates’? What is it that you expect me to say to that? “Oh…you’re right..I’m angry because I was raised up as a muslim but now I cant come to terms with the religion so I left it. Now I unload all my anger on the internet on unsuspecting muslims” Well I could say that, but its just not true. It doesnt work like that. Your experiences with Christianity dont apply to my experiences with Islam. You do not have death prescribed for apostates in christianity.

    About the gay couple:

    Alice, that is intolerant of you to use the word ‘abomination’. They’re human beings, for god’s sake. I dont believe they’re doing anything wrong. But if you do, then let me level with you. Everyone ‘sins’ in one way or another. You dont discriminate just because someone is a ‘sinner’. Its not standing for the principles. Fatima is not performing the ceremony. She’s catering. Serving food has nothing to do with sexual preferences. Again, they are human beings also just like all of us. They deserve to be treated as such. So what if they’re gay. It isnt going to affect her in any way nor is it going to go against her beliefs since she’s only serving food and not doing ‘homosexual things’ herself.

    Also, let me ask you ‘muslims’ a simple questions: If someone you love son/daughter/parent was an apostate would you kill him/her yourself? If not, if there was Shariah law in the country, would you report him/her to the autorities? If not that, would you consider it ‘just’ if he/she got executed for excercising religious freedom? What about if someone you love committed adultery? What if you were part of the Shariah law authority in such a country? Would you cut off the hand of a thief yourself? I mean, who would do these things and order them? What kind of sick people would watch? Its easy to pass judgement. Its easy to put people in little boxes. Its easy to preach. But when it comes to practice, it just doesnt materialize. Has any of you seen or been part of a public mutilation or execution in accordance with Shariah law and still held on firmly to Islam afterwards? (I havent myself and I dont want to, but I’m not the one who believes in this stuff). Honestly, I’m curious and want to know what you would do when faced with these situations.

  127. Zaraf

    Assalamulakum,

    Mashallah M, you certainly have a keen eye for picking out things like those you mentioned 🙂 Keep up the good work, inshallah!

    Btw Alice, please don’t ever link Faithfreedom.org again. That site is the biggest load of Islam hate I have ever seen, and its sickening. Taking weird, out of context, and even false things, and twisting them for their own sick agenda. They use emotional words in their essays to get the person all riled up into the flow of their writing, when really its all just a bunch of exaggerated trash. I don’t even want to imagine what the fate of those people running that site will be on the Day of Judgment 😦

    F-M, you seem to really love those “history” professors. But do you know where these history professors and researchers get their material? Mainly from European libraries and old European sources. Funny how they rely so much on European sources when they had such a weak written tradition during the Islamic empire’s reign. The Islamic empire was the center of the world, with the best of the best in everything.

    Did you know that the West’s science and technology would not be where it is at without the help of the countless Muslim scientists and researchers in the Islamic empire? I’m not surprised if you don’t, because historians conveniently ignore them. They give plenty of credit to Plato, Socrates, Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, etc. but when was the last time you heard about the contributions of the Muslims in scientific research?

    Europe credit Christopher Columbus to discovering that the world is round, and not flat as the ignorant Europeans believed. However, the Muslims knew that the world was round long before Columbus. This is proven by the fact that we have devices that date back to the early days of the Islamic empire, and these devices were used to help the Muslim travelers figure out which direction was Mecca (so they knew which direction to pray). What was remarkable was that these devices factored in, and made adjustments for the curvature of the earth.

    From this aspect alone, you can see the immense bias that is present from Western historians, which is why I’m hesitant to ever blindly accept anything that spews from their mouthes.

  128. Alice

    If it is intolerant to be against sinful lifestyles, the so be it, I am intolerant. Does that make me worst than the Muslim guy in Salt Lake City who went into the mall and killed a bunch of people?

    In today’s society I guess it does.

    By catering the abomination Fatima would have been participating in the abomination. It is as simple as that.

  129. Alice

    You gave us the zero.

    Thanks.

    But what have you done lately.

  130. Alice

    “It isn’t going to affect her in any way nor is it going to go against her beliefs since she’s only serving food and not doing ‘homosexual things’ herself.”

    Not true. It isn’t like when they just come into her restaurant. In this cause she would be performing a service at the actual abomination. By participating in the celebration of the abomination through catering, that gives her dirty hands.

  131. Alice

    I meant to type “in this case”.

    The difference between serving them food at the restaurant and catering the actual abomination should be clear.

  132. Serenity

    FM Shariah law is not Islam.

  133. Former Muslim

    Its part of it though.

    Alice:

    And no it doesnt make you worse than the the Salt Lake City Muslim, unless you have killed a bunch of people. Her hands will not be ‘dirty’. She’s not catering to animals but human beings. The only difference is that they’re gay. It makes no difference. You keep using the word abomination, but do you know what it means? She’s not taking ‘part’ in it. Again, she’s serving food. The only thing her hands are going to get dirty with is food.

    Zaraf:

    What you said about history professors and science is generally nonsense. They take their sources from everywhere, relying on careful research and analysis of facts and events. Most of them do not have an agenda and just want to research an impartial account of historical events. Would you take the word of an ‘Islamic scholar’ over an actual historian? Would you take the word of a former nun and now literature expert over a historian?

    And I have no doubt that the Islamic empire has made its fair share of contributions to the world. You know algebra and all that. But that has nothing to do with religion. Its the way empires are. Large empires have the resources to do research and develop new breakthrough technologies. Where is that for muslims now? I don’t see what you’re point is. They still had oppressive and repressive regimes. I know that. Whats your point in telling me this? And they give credit where credit is due most of the time, but maybe it is true that sometimes they dont give enough credit to some. Again, I cannot see your point there.

    Sorry, I dont know that much about astronomy and all that, but here’s what I think. Aristortle and maybe muslim scientists held the viewpoint of a round earth when most people didnt believe it out of skepticism but mostly Christianity, which dismissed these claims. However, they also believed that the earth was the center of the universe, but thats obviously false. These were just theories at the time. The earth being the center of the universe was also a theory. It was established for sure later on that the earth was round. Again, I dont see your point. If you’re trying to defend Islam with science or history it isnt going to work. You’re only going to pick the things that agree with you and your agenda. You’re not gonna pick evolution and the fact that the earth is about 4.5 b years old instead of 10,000. I suggest you dont ever mix science/history and Islam because if you’re speaking to a well educated scientists or historians they’ll completely destroy your arguments.
    There may be a slight bias for some historians. But not an immense one. When it comes to historical facts and figures and documents, they don’t mess around with those. You seem to think that there’s a ‘conspiracy’ against muslims. That is a false assumption. Most of the time credit is given where credit is due.
    And you seem to be blindly accepting whatever spews from the mouths of your imams and scholars, who dont even have the word impartial in their vocabulary. I would take the word of a good historian/scientist any day over the word of some imam or scholar or for that matter over the Quran or the Hadith.

    And thus far nobody has answered the questions I posed previously. Please, I’d really like to know.

  134. Alice

    She is catering an event that is in and of itself wrong.

  135. Former Muslim

    No its discrimination. Its not like they’re having orgies at the wedding. Its a simple marriage ceremony. There’s nothing more to it. Just because the gender of one of the people getting married is different isnt a good enough justification to refuse service.

  136. Alice

    The so called “wedding” was in and of itself an abomination. So anyone who is providing any service at the event at all, anyone who is in the least bit involved in the event is committing a sin.

    What was wrong was catering that specific event. A moral stand needed to me made but Fatima put her hatred of her competition ahead of that.

  137. Serenity

    FM “And how is it that the ‘muslims’ are living in a completely different world than everyone else?”

    Wave after wave starting with European imperalist, Nazis, Soviets and perhaps now you’d say Americans.

    Full Article
    http://www.hillsdale.edu/imprimis/2006/09/

    Reasons for the stagnation are complex and have been studied within the arab world though you give them little credit for thought. Don’t have a link to the article but I remember the way power is acquired coming to terms with modernity as important factors. But there are books on that you could read.

  138. Alice

    “She’s not catering to animals but human beings. ”

    She is catering to people who act like animals.

    Who act worst than many animals.

    And again, its not like she is just catering a social gathering they are having. She is catering an event that is in and of itself an abomination mocking the institution of marriage.

    Of course from the point of the Gramscian, since marriage is the foundation of any society, destroying marriage is very important in destroying culture. They have already been successful in destroying marriage to the point that divorces are way too easy to get. Homosexual marriage will destroy it further. And there is already talk of making “families” where there are more than one wives and/or more than one husband socially acceptable as well. And from there where will it go? I can’t even imagine, but the Left has quite an imagination so I am sure they will find other ways to pervert the institution of marriage and harm society.

  139. Alice

    We Americans just want to be left alone but by necessity had to get involved with nations who threaten to harm us.

    But we are no way being imperialists and will gladly turn over control to the people of the countries we are involved in when the country is stabilized and the threat to us removed.

    No one wants to leave Iraq more than we do. But when we leave we will leave a stable country that no longer has the ability to cause us harm.

  140. Shazia

    “Sorry, I dont know that much about astronomy and all that, but here’s what I think. ”

    I’ll talk about it anyway despite my ignorance.

    “Would you take the word of a former nun and now literature expert over a historian?”

    It is VERY clear you do not let FACTS get in the way of your pre-conceived notions since earlier I did show how KA has very good credentials for writing about religious history:

    >

    “What you said about history professors and science is generally nonsense. They take their sources from everywhere, relying on careful research and analysis of facts and events. ”

    What I know about science is for one group presenting a study proving “X”, another group has a study disproving it, case in point: global warming.

    “Most of them do not have an agenda and just want to research an impartial account of historical events.”

    There have been many cases of history being presented in a certain way because of an agenda. Turkey has deleted references to its genocide of the Armenians in WW1. Many books have been written by Holocaust deniers trying to prove it didn’t happen.

    If you want to know about the traditional Western bias apparent in Western works on Islam, study Orientalism.

    “Would you take the word of an ‘Islamic scholar’ over an actual historian?”

    You do say most historians do not have an agenda and are not biased but your complete dismissal of information provided by Islamic scholars, which many, many “actual historians” consult and your refusal to even consider Karen Armstrong’s work shows your bias against Islam in a very clear way and that you prefer only those books which concur with your prejudice.

  141. Search the Web

    2 great websites to learn about Islamic discoveries, achievements are:

    http://www.muslimheritage.com

    http://www.1001inventions.com

  142. Search the Web

    Below is what I wrote earlier about Karen Armstrong:

    “I would add Karen Armstrong includes the historian recommended by Former Muslim, Ira Lapidus, in her list of suggested reading in the back of her book: Islam, A Short History. It is a great list covering all areas, the prophet, history, mysticism, philosophy, theology, Islam and modern world, islamic fundamentalism, Western response to Islam.

    She has studied for a doctorate which I am sure helped polish her research skills has written on diverse religious topics and now teaches at a college which specialises in the study of Judaism. As a self-described “feminist and freelance monotheist”, she can hardly be accused of being pro-Islam; yet Muslims and non-Muslims alike praise her books on Islam.”

  143. Former Muslim

    Alice:

    Marriage is an institution. There’s nothing to protect. It doesnt affect you or me in any way if homosexuals are allowed to get married. And it certainly doesnt affect that woman. She’s not going to go to hell and she’s not commiting a sin serving them food. If her God is so just and merciful then surely, He must allow her to serve food to people. In fact, it should count as a good deed serving them food despite her beliefs. That she does good to human beings and provides them with food when she doesnt agree with what they’re doing. I think thats an extremely good deed to do that for someone.

  144. Alice

    Western academics such as historians have been tarished in that most of them are Leftists and would distort their academic study to promote their ideology.

    I don’t know where we can go to for any sense of “truth” these days in regard to history. I guess you just have to go to as many sources you can and do the academic work for yourself.

  145. Alice

    She is serving them food AT THE ABOMINATION.

    She is helping in the production of the abomination.

    By helping at the event she is certainly committing a sin. She can refuse (she initially did) and would then not be involved in the sin they were committing in any way at all (the sin of making a mockery of marriage).

    No good can come from helping people sin.

  146. Alice

    Marriage has all but been destroyed by the Left already by the way they have promoted easy divorce.

    It is an institution under seige and if one wants a strong vital society one would want to protect this institution since marriage is in fact the bedrock of all societies.

  147. Alice

    Let’s put it this way.

    Would a Muslim go to a Wiccan event and cater it?

    Of course not for then that Muslim would be helping in the practice of something that they see as against Allah.

  148. Alice

    What instead of a so-called gay “marriage” some white supremists were having a function?

    Should Fatima cater it?

    That would be providing them with food when she doesn’t agree with what they’re doing. And you said in the case of the gay “marriage” that it was a good thing.

  149. Former Muslim

    Shazia:
    “I’ll talk about it anyway despite my ignorance.”

    No it means, I’m not sure if this is entirely true. But its roughly the idea.

    “It is VERY clear you do not let FACTS get in the way of your pre-conceived notions since earlier I did show how KA has very good credentials for writing about religious history”

    I’m not saying she’s wrong or anything. I’m not saying she’s unreliable either. However, I would take a historian’s word over hers. I dont want to read her book not because I think she’s unreliable. I just think I’m probably better off reading a book by an actual historian who knows more about the subject.

    “There have been many cases of history being presented in a certain way because of an agenda. Turkey has deleted references to its genocide of the Armenians in WW1. Many books have been written by Holocaust deniers trying to prove it didn’t happen.”

    Polemic. Which has no place in history. Real established Turkish historians know about it and some come out and speak about the armenian genocide. Even now I was watchin a doc about a turkish historian who was talking about the armenian genocide, despite being afraid for his life. And Turkey is not a good example to give in this case. Most western historians know all about the armenian genocide and don’t leave it out or lie about it. Holocaust is a historical fact and there is plenty of evidence for it. The people who deny it are not really historians. I dont think any well known sane historian denies the holocaust.

    “You do say most historians do not have an agenda and are not biased but your complete dismissal of information provided by Islamic scholars, which many, many “actual historians” consult and your refusal to even consider Karen Armstrong’s work shows your bias against Islam in a very clear way and that you prefer only those books which concur with your prejudice.”

    Again KA and Islamic scholars may be right. But they pick and choose what they want to quote and use FROM good books by historians that provide the whole picture instead of a partial selective one. Thats why if an Islamic scholar says something that disagrees with an actual historian, I would take the word of the actual historian or historians. Same with science. I may not disregard completely the arguments of islamic scholars and KA, but I would also take into consideration other factors and points that they purposely dont mention or lie about. For example Islamic scholars saying that Islam wasnt spread by the sword, and -its generally taken as a fact in history and by historians that it was certainly the case-. (May I remind you that this part in the hyphens is not only from me its also from a well known historian that I spoke to one-on-one). I dont choose books that concur with my prejudice. I choose books based on merit and impartiality. You may think that all historians are against you and have got a prejudice or a bias. But the simple truth is that history cannot be changed. Only interpretation of that history can be. There is a difference between presenting an argument and presenting facts. There is also a huge difference between what the mainstream society thinks and what the acedemics know. For example: It is a general belief of many that communism is/was monolithic. However, historians and people who have studied history know that it is in fact not monolitic (i.e. there are many types).
    If you ask a scientist about evolution, he’d probably tell you very different from what you’ve learned from the media or from an Islamic scholar. If you ask a historian about the discovery of america, I’m pretty sure he’d tell you things that are very different from what impression you have from the media. Academics in their specific fields are generally extremely reliable sources and are better than mainstream media or even mainstream books for educational value, which are often misleading.

  150. Alice

    How about if the event was a “handfasting”

    A handfasting is the Wiccan/Celtic pagan form of marriage but unlike what we think of marriage but can sometimes be a trial “marriage” lasting only for one year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handfasting

    So, what if it was one of those types of “marriages”?

    What if the local swingers club was having an event? Would it be ok for Fatima to cater that event? Just cater, not participate in any other way.

  151. Aalia Canadian

    anyways…LoL

  152. Former Muslim

    Again, she’s not actually committing a sin. Just serving food to people. If God is going to put her in hell for that, then he’s not a just god.

  153. Alice

    She is helping in the production of an event that is an abomination. That is what she is doing.

  154. Former Muslim

    No. She’s serving the people food. If she didn’t then someone else would. Makes no difference to them or to her. They dont need her to do this. They’re paying her for a service.

  155. Alice

    Then she should let someone else do it.

    What is more important? Money or her principles?

    Actually the reason she was doing it was because she hated her competition and didn’t want them to get the business.

    Is that a good reason to justify committing a sin?

  156. Aalia Canadian

    Former Muslim, quit trying to bring up the “In Islam, if you leave the religion and become an apostate, you will be killed.” This excuse is taken out of context. Here is the real story: In the early years of Islamic history, the Muslims were engaged in a DEFENSIVE WAR against the pagan Arabs, who oppressed, tortured and unjustly murdered them. When someone left Islam for no valid reason, it was viewed as an act of TREASON because of the help they could provide to the other side. This law no longer applies in modern times. Oh and by the way, in America the penalty for treason is what?… Death.

  157. Alice

    Would it be ok for her to serve the white supremists food if they were having an event?

  158. Alice T

    Would it be ok for Fatima to serve white supremists if they were having an event?

  159. Dear Former Something

    Yes, I would hand over my son, wife, Mother, whoever to a Muslim court if he is an appostate/Thief/Murderer/Rapist/Etc.

    This is what good people do, regardless of their religion. And in fact, our religion encourages us to try to help those that need help, but when they cross the line of other people’s rights, property, the issue is no longer in question. They must be turned in. So there is your answer.

    As for your skewed understanding that somehow in Islam justice is served by the people not through a court of law, I don’t know where you got that from, but lemme guess, that particular detail would not be apparent to someone who was not a Muslim in the first place. Either way, I knew you were not a former anything like I said before, just some well versed Muslim hater. Which is fine really, if that is how you want to spend your energy.

    But make no mistake my friend, call Mohammad or My religion anything other than within the boundaries of scientific Critique in my face and you will have to answer to one angry Muslim. It is interesting how I always run into Muslim haters like you, but they never, ever ever, dare say things like that to a me in my face. I guess they are too scared of crossing a line and finding out how far a Muslim is willing to go to prove a point.

    It’s too bad that I cant’ see you right now to give you my formal “civilized” reply to you calling Mohammad peace be upon him names. But that is your luck, I can’t take that away from you.

    Now, back to science, where exactly does it say in Islam that the world is 10,000 years old? Can you please give me the verse, or even the hadeeth that says that? I think not. Perhaps you were referring to some biblical reference. But the Quraan, I KNOW that it doesn’t say that anywhere.

    Actually my dear something, Educated folks like me, don’t have a problem with Science and Quraan at all, because there are no contradictions.

    You say evolution? I say no problem, Where does the Quraan contradict the theory of evolution “that is if the scientific community finally agrees to the theory of evolution”, the Quraan clearly says that there were other life forms before the advent of man as we know it today.

    But I guess some people like you would like God almight to come down and educated them, do their research for them, hand them their job description, hook them up with a wife, a job, a car and some cash money to spare.

    You got religion all wrong, dear something, God is not in the business of coming down to your level to tell how he marvelously created this, and how marvelously created that, If I were God and far be it from me to say that or think about even, I would say: WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

    It is you who is the creature, not God, and you will do the answering, not him.
    It is you who came from nothing and will again be nothing, not him.

    You say, earth is the center of the universe, perhaps you confused the bible with the Quraan, as the Quraan clearly says the universe is expanding, that the earth and the sun are each in their own orbit.. so again my dear “Don’t bring Islam and science in the same sentence or educated folks will destroy you”, Where is this contradiction in the Quraan that you speak of with science?

    I’ll be waiting Former something.

  160. Serenity

    Interesting Aalia, when you convert aren’t you also making a promise to Allah. Many people had/have a code or honour and would have a dim view of that.

  161. Alice T

    Of course in my country we don’t make it a crime not to practice a religion and I believe that is how it should be.

    But if my son was a rapist, a murderer, a terrorist, a traitor to America, I would turn him in to the authorities.

  162. Serenity

    Ooops. A dim view of making promises lightly that is not making them in the first place.

  163. Alice T

    Oh, also if he was a drug dealer. Maybe not immediately with him being a drug dealer. I would try to talk him out of continuing with being a drug dealer but if I couldn’t stop him from continuing to be a drug dealer I would turn him in.

  164. Alice T

    Oh, and as for turning my son over if he was a murderer it would depend on who he killed and the situation behind it.

    I was talking about if he was some kind of serial killer.

  165. Former Muslim

    To Alice:

    Its not about money though. And you can’t compare white supremist gatherings to marriages. Completely different situations.

    Aalia Canadian:

    Most muslims scholars agree that there are no ifs ands or buts for the punishment for apostates. They do not talk about historical context or exceptions. Other scholars grapple with this issue. However it is the consensus that regardless of the situation the penalty for apotates is death. And as you know, consensus of scholars holds priority over ijtihaad in islam. Again part of this is not from me – Dr. Yasser Haddara who is a well known Canadian muslim scholar himself has said himself that this is a consensus among scholars and he’s grappling with the issue himself. So, there you go.

    Binmugahid:

    “WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?”

    well that certainly put me in my place. thankyou for your insightful input. And I’m sure you would watch your parent/child die too if he/she committed adultery or is an apostate. You know how that sounds to a non-muslim? Intolerant, insensitive, uncompassionate and barbaric. But most muslims wouldnt. Apostates are not taking anyone’s rights or life away. Or harming anyone.
    And I already said I’m not a muslim hater. I’m not going to repeat myself and say the same thing I said in a previous post.
    And isnt it the belief that Adam was the first human being on earth? There are cases where Islam goes along with science just fine. But its stupid to say that its completely that way. I could speak about many examples where it isnt. Like when it talks about mountains holding down the earth or something. Everything you say seems to be from an Imam’s handbook.
    And “people like me”? What kind of judgemental talk in that. There you go putting me in a box again.

    “But make no mistake my friend, call Mohammad or My religion anything other than within the boundaries of scientific Critique in my face and you will have to answer to one angry Muslim. It is interesting how I always run into Muslim haters like you, but they never, ever ever, dare say things like that to a me in my face. I guess they are too scared of crossing a line and finding out how far a Muslim is willing to go to prove a point.

    It’s too bad that I cant’ see you right now to give you my formal “civilized” reply to you calling Mohammad peace be upon him names. But that is your luck, I can’t take that away from you.”

    Good sir, that is a threat. Or a veiled threat. Dont go threatening me. If you want to defend your religion, thats the last thing you wanna do. I have no problems saying this stuff face to face to you and muslims who say the same things as you. And you think threatening me is going to stop me think again. How far would you go, good sir? How far would you go to prove that your prophet wasnt a murderer, pedophile and a violent human being? Would you resort to murder and violence yourself? Kind of ironic isnt it? Now we see your true colors, mr ‘educated’ and ‘civilized’.

  166. Former Muslim

    To Alice T:

    Well, this is about apostates and adultery. Would you condone the execution of your son if he was an apostate or committed adultery?

  167. Alice T

    “Its not about money though. And you can’t compare white supremist gatherings to marriages. Completely different situations. ”

    The only thing that makes the two situations different is that you approve of one and disapprove of the other.

    How about at a swingers event? Would it be ok if Fatima catered that event?

  168. Alice T

    No, former Muslims I would not condone the execution of your son if he was an apostate or committed adultery.

    It is one of the things that make me go ugh about how Islam is practiced overseas.

  169. Alice Thomlinson

    Would you condone the execution of my son or anyone else if he was an apostate or committed adultery?

  170. Alice Thomlinson

    Of course all this is how my culture has taught me to think.

    I don’t know where a respect for different cultural values should end and disgust for what I see as a violation of human rights begins.

    Obviously such stuff has been done in Islamic countries for a long time now. Should I just chalk it up to being “their ways” or should I condemn them for it?

  171. Alice Thomlinson

    I meant to type I would NOT condone the execution of my son or anyone else if he was an apostate or committed adultery.

  172. Former Muslim

    Alice,
    There are differences. White supremacy is racism. You witness a clearly illegal thing. Thats the law. With homosexuality its not the law. Its the religious belief. About a swinger’s event? Well, if she’s not commiting a sin or forced. If it doesnt affect her in any way. Like if its a key party or something. She’s not part of it. Just servin the food.

    And in addition here’s a useful clip to better understand where I’m coming from in terms of Shariah law:

  173. Alice Thomlinson

    Racism isn’t illegal.

    At least it still isn’t in America.

    Making it illegal would be creating a “thought crime” and we are very hestitant about creating thought crimes.

  174. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    ‘Former Muslim:’

    Aww, sweetie, got up at the crack a dawn to read on line huh? Still hungry? Need more bait?

    And posted a reply to mine last night right away….my, my, I do admire your diligence;).

    Looks like you do have some similarities with at least one character of LMOTP, Ammar.

    From the first episode, when he mentions that Muslims don’t have a sense of humor.

    Well, count me as one who does. I’m sure you’ve heard of satire, youngun?

    If my comments bother you so much….maybe I hit a raw nerve or two after all…well then, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    I sit corrected, I should not have referred to you as a child. It is an insult to children worldwide.

    Your ‘long road’ does not necesarily mean your age.
    It does not matter the number you now bear, whether it is 23, 32, 52, 73.

    The road I am referring to is the one of treading along for a healthy attitude. Some call it healing, some call it a spiritual awakening.

    Call it what you will. But really, it’s your attitude.

    All anyone has to do is….

    Read

    between

    the

    lines.

    It’s not difficult. So what if you are 45 years of age? That would be 45 years of pent up frustration and anger just now getting out, at any cost.

    (Whooo hooo, take cover everyone;)

    Some 15 year olds hold maturity up much better than your attitude.

    You wrote:

    “Here’s a newsflash: my life aint full of hate but freedom and peace.”

    Still reaching for that limelight, that 15 minutes of fame huh,? with your ‘newsflash.’

    You should keep on telling yourself how your life is full of freedom and peace. Go on, continue.
    It’s good for your self esteem.

    And this reminder:

    “But I havent accused anyone of being a liar or called anyone names.

    Sorry but you people are hopeless. I’ve heard all your ridiculous arguments before.”

    I never stated you were a liar, I brought up the possibility that you could be whoever you want to be via this blog. It’s nothing new to any of us. I said you could be anyone making up a character for yourself, you know as in acting?? You don’t think some people act through their hopes/dreams, fears/aggressions on message boards?

    And referring to ‘us people’ as ‘hopeless,’ for such an esteemed scholar of history as yourself, again, that is insulting, rude, and narrow minded.

    You’re beginning to become unraveled, making excuses for yourself, etc. –

    “Sorry but people jumped on me for my initial comment about Muhammad. I’m not preaching but defending.”

    Well, honey, this (therapy) session is a gift from me to you, it’s on the house;).

    For other readers of this blog:

    This isn’t about ‘Former Muslim’ leaving Islam to me. I firmly believe in ‘ to each his own.’ It’s more about the self righteous attitude this commentator portrays in his/her comments. Closing doors on academics because they aren’t good enough, etc.

    Sometimes I get certain faith groups knocking on my door to share their faith with me and my neighbors. It is fine with me.

    I listen, respond, we talk. I don’t feel threatened, neither do they. I’ve bumped into some of these same people out in public places, we say hello, talk for a few minutes, and go on.

    ‘Former Muslim’ reeks of being threatened and is very combative.

    What’s going on here, in my eyes, my intention, is not me as some sort of ‘Muslim example’ vs ‘Former Muslim,’ as it is a custom or cultural game, if you will. Compare it to the Japanese custom of saving face. It is heady stuff for some cultures, such as for Arabs or Asians.

    (And BTW I admire and appreciate the customs and cultures of Arabs, Asians, all peoples. I especially admire the women of these cultures, They hold centuries of strength through their traditions and family blood lines. Imagine living in the desert generation after generation… that has to count for something….they come from a fierce, hearty, steadfast regime of survival.)

    Yes, I’m Muslim, but hell, I break the rules all the time…and I’m the first one to admit – I’m one of those nasty, pushy, know-it-all Americans to boot. One who loves to debate.

    I love a parade!! And fishin’!!:)!!

    Eat well, ‘Former Muslim.’

    Salam to All –

  175. Former Muslim

    No I mean. Inciting hatered and all that jazz. KKK is certainly not legal or an authorized institution.

  176. John

    This was a nice little discussion for a while, but it’s getting pretty nasty, so I’m going to stop coming by this site — at least until the new season starts. I’d like to thank all of you who are engaging in civilized and polite conversation, it’s been pleasant and educational chatting with you.

    All this talk of abomination is making me sad and sick. It’s almost word-for-word what people used to say about inter-racial marriage. These “so-called” Christians who are so down on gay people should read their own Bibles — especially that part of the old testament where homosexuality is called an abomination. And read all the other rules there, about what you can wear and not wear, and eat and not eat, and how men shouldn’t shave — and unless you’re following ALL of those rules yourself, you’re a damned hypocrite.

    That’s all from me. I apologize if I’m sounding nasty, too. Feel free to reply, but I won’t see it.

    -peace

  177. Alice Thomlinson

    KKK is legal but if they do engage in talk that incites or encourages the overthrow of the government, that would indeed be illegal.

    The same goes for Imans.

  178. Former Muslim

    But thats what they do. I’m not talking about their speech or their thoughts. Its their actions.

  179. Alice Thomlinson

    John,

    I am not “down on gay people”.

    I am down on homosexuality. I am down on their lifestyle.

    It is too bad you can’t see the difference.

  180. Alice Thomlinson

    Former Muslim

    If the White Supremists had an event and they don’t incite violence but talk instead about how “superior” the white race was and criticized other races, but again they don’t say they want to beat them up or cause them harm in any way, then would it be ok for Fatima to cater the function?

  181. Ahh… the former something speaketh again.

    here is the thing Former something, I don’t make any veiled threats. To make it very clear so that there is no misunderstanding whatsoever between us, I WILL definitely ensure that your health deteriorates should you repeat those curses about Islam and Mohammad in my face, and lets leave it at that till the next time we meet, If I am lucky.

    Now, that the unpleasantness is out of the way, lets get back to matters on discussion.

    Now, back to your Mountains holding the earth.

    Here is what you said and I quote “And isnt it the belief that Adam was the first human being on earth? There are cases where Islam goes along with science just fine. But its stupid to say that its completely that way. I could speak about many examples where it isnt. Like when it talks about mountains holding down the earth or something”

    Typical guy who cant even read Arabic properly translating the Quraan and then judging the Quraan as a book with false things. YES, There is a reference in Islam about mountains being like pegs, which indicates that a mountain does not start from the surface of the earth as was assumed 1400 years ago, but actually a mountain has roots much like a peg or a nail has a viewable part and a hidden part. There is nothing that say the mountains hold down the earth. I would be delighted to be a former something like yourself if you were to just tell me where does the Quraan say that.

    But like I said, you either read something that was lost in translation, or you are selectively hiding the meaning of the verse that says the mountains are like pegs to mislead people into thinking that Islam “a religion you supposedly had and lost” is no good.

    As far as putting you in a box, fo shizzle, I am putting you in a box. Not denying, you are hereby boxed. Does it get any clearer this?

    Now, back to you Science Friday Comments, yes, Adam was the first human created. Does it say in the Quraan that there were no prior human like creatures? No. Infact, it is mentioned in the Quraan that there were creatures before Adam that engaged in killing and pillage and all sorts of evil stuff that men so creatively do today, The Quraan does not say about those creatures being Genomes, Half human, sub human or whatever name you have for you ancestors. God likes his creatures to do a little bit of work every now and then and use that brain he gave them.

    So, saying that Adam was the first human, does not in any way shape or form contradict the so called Evo theory “Keep in mind that there is not overwhelming agreement on the theory in the first place amongst the scientific community”. I am a Muslim fundamentalist and I’m as extreme as they come, but I don’t see any problem in believing that certain creatures evolve from certain creatures according to the law of natural selection. What I don’t believe is that it all started from nothing. Which is absurd.

    You seem to have it wrong about us, we are not trying to please you, appease you, appeal to you or anything, we’d rather be ourselves, Muslims, and if you happen to like the way we are, by all means, be like us. But we are definitely not in a popularity contest to win the hearts and minds of the non-muslims or the former muslims for that matter.

    Oh, and by the way, Surrendering a criminal to the authorities is not barbaric as you call it, it is called civic duty my dear former something. It’s just that somehow civic duty is called that when it is practiced by non-muslims, but it somehow gets conveniently called “Intolerant, insensitive, uncompassionate and barbaric” by the former somethings

    .

  182. Saziz

    Okay what’s up with you people? I thought you were all supposed to civilly discuss a show or something, not take part in some discussion of theology.
    And my good God, Former Muslim, end the hate, damn it. Nobody is trying to keep you from doing what you want (unless of course, M and Zaraf has your address, and they’re thinking, ‘When do we hunt this apostate down and carry out God’s plan?’), and I don’t think any of us really enjoy you whining. You didn’t like Islam, boo hoo. You say that your life doesn’t have intolerance and hate, but you keep coming here and dissing Islam. Do you have a problem, son? Did you get dumped?
    Honestly, I thought I’d see people discuss their feelings about the episode here but apparently this is a forum, ‘What’s wrong with Islam and Chrisitianity or heck, religion as whole today? (Or is anything wrong with it?)’

  183. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    Saziz:

    You wrote:

    “(unless of course, M and Zaraf has your address, and they’re thinking, ‘When do we hunt this apostate down and carry out God’s plan?’)”

    I’m hoping that came from a great sense of humor;) – but please don’t put words into my mouth.

    Re-read what I wrote – here –

    “This isn’t about ‘Former Muslim’ leaving Islam to me. I firmly believe in ‘ to each his own.’ It’s more about the self righteous attitude this commentator portrays in his/her comments. Closing doors on academics because they aren’t good enough, etc.”

    I am one of those non-violent types, believe it or not.

    Whatever floats ‘Former Muslim’s’ boat is fine by me.

    And yeah, back on track, you’re right. The show, the show….

    I would like to see the character of Rayyan with a Muslim or non-Muslim girlfriend. It’s a bummer to see her on her own, with no close friendships. I mean, of another female closer to her age.

    What if she had an old girlfriend from the Muslim community of Mercy return to visit her parents, maybe she’s divorced, and it gets Rayyan to thinking more about her personal life outside of her profession life as a doctor?

    I may be the only one here, but I do like how the characters of Baber and his daughter are evolving.

    For me, it’s real. Here we have this traditionalist, Baber, living in the west as a widower, with a teenage daughter. What challenges they face together…

    I really, really appreciated the scenes when she got her period and he had to deal with it openly. That is so uncommon. It was refreshing.

    Sarah is wimpy. She may be a good mix of converts though. Those who convert for the sake of their marriage, not so much for the faith itself. Like I wrote before, she reminds me of the character of ‘Ian Miller’ from “My Big Fat Greek Wedding.”

    SheMayor is too condescending of Sarah’s religious choice to convert to Islam. Is this going somewhere, as far as how Muslims deal with the workplace, their bosses, laws, etc.?

    Fatima is a riot. So is Fred Tupper. I like their ‘friendship.’

    Yassir’s character of a typical Arab business man is hilarious. He needs a few more businesses though. It is not uncommon to see these guys with this or that going on to make money.

    Ammar is soooo in love with Rayyan. I want to meet his family, especially his father.

    My overall favorite scene is the opening one from the first episode…the actress who portrays a fellow passenger and overhears Ammar’s conversation with his mother (?)was brilliant. She didn’t many lines, her facial expressions said it all.

    Can’t wait for the new episodes in the fall. Thanks LMOTP.

    Salam to All –

  184. Alice Thomlinson

    I hope that we don’t see the gay swimming instructor anymore.

    But since this is the CBC I am afraid we will.

  185. Former Muslim

    “here is the thing Former something, I don’t make any veiled threats. To make it very clear so that there is no misunderstanding whatsoever between us, I WILL definitely ensure that your health deteriorates should you repeat those curses about Islam and Mohammad in my face, and lets leave it at that till the next time we meet, If I am lucky.”

    On that pleasant note. I do not want to be part of this anymore. Bye bye.

  186. Serenity

    In the series, all non-mulsims and converts are not likeable. They are weak, self-centered and shallow. Before we even got to know Jeff, it was decided that he was a loser. And it did turn out that he was a loser even by western standards but I hope it doesn’t become shorthand for the whole series to do that. His only positive was his sex appeal and the same goes for Sarah. What does she do well that is not in the bedroom?

    The whole Ammar thing is confusing to me. Are relationships between imam and follower really that intimate? There is no wall of respect?

  187. Aalia Canadian

    Probably Amar and Rayyan get engaged. I think Sara converted for her husband, which is kinda lame LoL but oh well…one thing I cant stand about non-Muslims asking me why I converted to Islam is they assume I did it for a MAN (they know my husband is from the Emirates). LoOoOoOoL as if. Religion is very important to me and no MAN is going to judge me on the Day of Judgement. Oh wells, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts. BTW I agree with the statement “each to their own” because of Surah-al-Kafirun aka Chapter of the non-Muslims. It specifically lets us know how to treat others.

    Bismillah

    Say you, O non-Believers!

    I worship not that you worship.

    And nor you worship what I worship.

    And I shall not worship what you worshiped.

    And nor you shall worships what I worship.

    For you, your religion and for me, my religion.

    What a luvly chapter:) I respect and listen to all until they transgress against me. Then I just stop talking to them until they change the talk (this deals with making fun of Allah SWT, His Propher SAWS, His other Messenger, Signs, Angels etc). There are some smart people on this forum and I really enjoy reading their posts. Let’s continue on with a informative and respectful place for ideas and views Insha’Allah. take care all:)

  188. Serenity

    I don’t doubt that they become engaged. Their relationship just seems very flirtatuous. Would a real imam be like that? In some Christian religions there is certainly a distance between their priest or minister and the congregation (and even within the congregation). In this mosque everyone seems so friendly even though they argue sometimes. Is that accurate?

    Aalia, how does/did your husband’s family receive you? How insulting to you and your husband for people to assume you converted only for him.

  189. Hassan

    Former Muslim and others..

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

    All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

    It is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who choose to leave Islam. To kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Qur’an. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur’an that is clearly stated. Thus, if apostates cause no harm to the Muslim community and do not call for spreading hostility towards Islam, they should not to be punished; rather they should be advised kindly and wisely to learn the truth about Islam.

    In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

    Freedom of conscience is one of the fundamental rights of humans enshrined in the Qur’an; it is therefore, absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam allows putting people to death just because they convert to another religion.

    Even a casual reader of the Qur’an will not fail to be impressed by its emphasis on the freedom of conscience as a cornerstone of its moral structure. To cite a few verses as follows:

    [There shall be no compulsion in religion. Distinct has now become the right way from [the wayof] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing] ( Al-Baqarah 2:256)

    [If it had been your Lord’s will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?] (Yunus 10:99)

    [And if they surrender themselves unto Him (i.e. God), they are on the right path; but if they turn away – behold, thy duty (O Muhammad,) is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.] (Aal `Imran 3:20)

    [Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger’s only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him].] (Al-Ma’idah 5:92)

    [But if they turn away [from thee, O Prophet, know that] Wehave not sent thee to be their keeper: thou art not bound to do more than deliver the message [entrusted to thee] .] (Ash-Shura 42:48)

    I should further state that all of the moral teachings of the Qur’an are based on the notion of moral responsibility, which entails the freedom of choice. Therefore, to state that one must be put to death for choosing to disbelieve would only undermine the entire moral edifice of the Qur’an.

    Furthermore, the Qur’an does not allow anyone to harm those who are leaving in peace, no matter what religion they hold on to. This principle has been clearly stated in the Qur’an as follows:

    [Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:90)

    In pursuance of this policy, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) issued clear directives to his soldiers never to disturb those who are engaged in any form of worship. The policy of living and letting others to live is firmly enshrined in the following verses:

    [Say: O disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship, Nordo you worship what I worship. … to you your religion, and to me, mine.] (Al-Kafirun 109:1-3, 6)

    In full conformity with the above teachings, neither the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) nor any of the four rightly guided caliphs who succeeded him were in the habit of hunting down people and executing them for merely changing their religions. Rather, they refrained from doing so except in rare cases involving treason. Treason, however, is another matter. The punishment for treason in the Qur’an is as strict as it is in the Hebrew Bible. But it must never be confused with mere change of religion.

    In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.

    Excerpted, with slight modifications, from http://www.islam.ca.

  190. To the admin of this site, please email me if you would like the little mosque email account

  191. Aalia Canadian

    Hello Serenity:) To answer your question, my husband’s mother treats me like her own daughter and his siblings are really sweet to me. Alhamdulillah. I havent had a chance to see his father because he is always travelling LoL Anyways I just wanted to post something really stupid I read. Apparently a website claiming to be created by Muslims giving out Islamic information is only a site created by anti-Islamic people. For example, there is a really lame verse they use from a Surah called “Surah al-Tabari XI:113” AS IF there is any such thing LoOoOoOoL. The content in it tells that women and animals deserve the same treatment and that women can be beaten anytime for any reason. HAHAHAHAHA okay??? Unfortunately, alot of people have fallen for this and they continue to use it falsely. For anyone who wants to know, Tabari was the name of a Shi’a scholar, NOT a chapter in the Qu’ran that tells Muslim men to mishandle their women. Anyways Serenity to answer your question, the comfy relationships between the men and women in the Muslim community are innaccurate. If a woman wanted to even see a Imam for advice, they would be accompanied by others. If the men and women are not related in any way, they keep a respectable distance from eachother. There is no joking, laughing between us, just a very simple “salaam” and if we need something or inquiring about someone we keep it short and simple. Other Muslim women/men are more open to mingling with strange women/men but this is their choice. I used to do this but it only caused trouble for me (temptation) and FINALLY someone made it clear to me about the Islamic protocal:) Oops sorry this is a long post sorry for the long reading! Take care all:)

  192. Aalia Canadian

    Double post to make something clearer:)

    “Anyways Serenity to answer your question, the comfy relationships depicted by “Little Mosque” of the men and women in the Muslim community are innaccurate.”

  193. Aminah

    Thank you Aalia, for your comments to Serenity! I am a western woman who converted to Islam, and I was disappointed to read her comment (long, long, long ago) that Sarah’s character depicts how horrific it would be to marry a western woman.

    Quoting Serenity here: “I think they put her in to show the horrific situation you would be in if you married a western woman.”

    I think Sarah’s character is a complete nutcase (which you must have in every sitcom, I believe), but she does at least demonstrate that Muslim women can be fun, liberated, and–dare I say–sexual beings. She’s on a journey and has a lot to learn spiritually (a WHOLE lot); but then again, don’t we all?

    It really doesn’t make sense that she is in the show to teach a lesson about the evils of marrying western women; after all, most of the behind-the-scene (and on-the-scene) cast are non-Muslims!

    And personally, I would make a wonderful wife! :0D

    And thanks to all who defended Karen Armstrong! Too bad F-M wasn’t willing to give her a chance; I truly believe she offers us an unbiased perspective on Islamic history.

  194. Aminah

    Let me expand my thoughts briefly…

    I was at a recent gathering with my sisters from my masjid; we shared diet tips, we prayed and discussed hadith; then we stuffed our guts with GREAT food and bellydanced. Only four out of about 35 were American converts.

    I think it’s great that a Muslim woman on the show loves her husband and is playful with him and wants him physically. Maybe Sarah needs a Muslim-born friend to talk girl stuff with (or bellydance with or whatever), just to show that’s not just her western background rearing its ugly head! ;0)

    The biggest faux pas I’ve seen Sarah’s character make was in the episode about the divider coming down when she pinched Yasir on the hiney just before prayers began in the mosque. I can’t believe that wasn’t red-flagged.

    But the playfulness on the phone and at home; well…that’s okay in moderation.

    I’d like to see the presence of Oriental Muslims on the show. My first Muslim friend is Malaysian, and Arab-Muslims only make up about 20% of the entire population, I believe.

    Asalamu alaikum to all! I hope your week is blessed!

  195. Serenity

    Aminah, perhaps we’ve have a miscommunication. I was not saying that it is horrific to have a western wife. But I am disappointed that the one western person that they do depict in the show who has converted is the dingbat Sarah. She wasn’t especially interesting at the start but I really disliked her by the time she selfishly tried to sabotage her own daughter’s effort for a female swim class. That was followed by her pathetic attempt to be a more serious Muslim by her bleary-eyed praying on bathmats. Even with her daughter’s dating is she completely clueless about what is important to her own daughter. Obviously, obviously this is going to be a mistake but she practically offers her own bedroom to the pair after she feels the fireman up (did you catch that part). She is so base. A loving relationship would be great but with those two it seems all sexual because your left trying to figure out what is even likable about her.

    I actually think she is quite damaging because I’ve read comments where people think she might just be an accurate portrayal of a woman who has converted. Uggg. I do know women who have converted and married Muslim men and they are far from being the bottom-of-the-barrel sexpot character portrayed here. They are actual nice, attractive, intelligent, loving mothers. It’s too bad Sarah somehow represents them.

  196. Serenity

    Oh and be the way I just got a new bellydancing tape yesterday. I’ll let you know if it worhtwhile 🙂

  197. Serenity wrote: Their relationship just seems very flirtatuous. Would a real imam be like that? In some Christian religions there is certainly a distance between their priest or minister and the congregation (and even within the congregation). In this mosque everyone seems so friendly even though they argue sometimes. Is that accurate?

    Just to add on to Aalia’s comments, what Little Mosque shows with regard to the flirtatious relationship between Rayyan and Amaar is inaccurate in that there is always a distance between unmarried Muslim men and women, in particular, and non-related men and women, in general. However, with regard to the friendliness between Muslims, yes, that’s quite accurate. Over the years as a Muslim, I’ve found other Muslims to be very friendly regardless of where they are from or where I’ve met them (I’ve lived in several countries over the past few years, plus traveled to a number of other countries). Just because a man is an imam doesn’t mean that he becomes unfriendly or distances himself from other people. My ustaz (religious teacher), who is also an imam at several masajid, and his wife have both very friendly, very warm personalities. When he is working, yes, he becomes serious like anyone else but, otherwise, he is often a very jovial man.

  198. Saziz

    Brother M, I was kidding, this is a case of ‘sarchasm’.
    And I’m so sad that Former Muslims left ;_;, we will sorely miss your company. Who will enlighten us about Islam now?
    That’s sarcasm, again, in case anyone missed it.

  199. Aminah

    Thank you for clarifying, Serenity!

    No, I didn’t catch Sarah trying to feel up the fireman. I am in total agreement: they need a better western convert role model! The only other one they had was the fanatic a few episodes ago.

    And any worthwhile bellydance resources will be much appreciated!

    May Allah send peace and blessings your way, Serenity!

  200. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    Saziz:

    Just checkin’…(about the sarcasm)…I had hoped you were jokin’…and I’m glad to share more funnies with you and others.

    One of my favorites, “Muslims Do have a sense of humor,” is from the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

    When he was sitting with his companions discussing the ‘bad’ ole days of jalaliya (days of ignorance; idol worship, etc. for the Arab culture of the times).

    The conversation got pretty lively, with stories of what they ‘used to do.’ Laughing and poking fun at themselves…he was also smiling, very broadly, his back molars were visible.

    I love this story for so many reasons.

    First, to show that our Prophet (PBUH) had a great sense of humor, which he shared with all of us.

    Thus proving we can be funny too.

    And the fact of the topic they were discussing in the first place. Some people, well intentioned, may say things like (to any Muslim, convert or not), oh, sister/brother don’t talk about what you ‘used to do,’ it’s not a good example, (haram), blah, blah, blah.

    Not true, I think of it as a really good, healthy therapy session. After all, if we don’t learn from our own ‘Little Experiences,’ (good and bad) how are we to progress???

    So I too, poke fun at my old ways…

    And it would be news to my many children and their father of me being a ‘Brother,’ after all these years….(and a scientific miracle;), I’ve been called many things but not a ‘brother,’ til now;)!!! That was good, got me giggling…

    Salam to All –

  201. Aalia Canadian

    Asalaam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato to ALL:) Just wanted to say hi and hope everyone is doing fine. Tomorrow is the end of another week, SubhanAllah. Anyways this show I realized makes fun of Canadian Muslims, its just a comedy but I dont find it funny. Thats mine and the people around me who thinks this. I wonder how long this show will last? I heard there is a second season coming but I wonder what the episodes will be about? If the content will be somehow changed? Huh I am interested to see how this series turns out. OKayz take care all:)

  202. Ann

    Baber’s daugher is going to become a homosexual.

  203. Aminah

    Oh, Ann, you just wanna open a new can of worms, doncha?

  204. Aminah

    Is there anyone who can tell me if “can of worms” is just a regional saying (southern U.S.), or is it something you say in Canada (or wherever), too?

  205. Aminah

    I have an aunt who uses the phrase “ugly as a mud post.” I think that one’s southern!

    Does anyone think that sitcoms (and dramas, too, for that matter) tend to mature (usually) in subsequent seasons? This being Little Mosque’s first season, they probably have a lot of learning to do–they being the staff and the actors.

  206. Ali

    WOW. I leave for a week and I miss all of this?

    What I’m about to write is the most controversial that I’ve written yet – read at your own will.

    I’m Iraqi sheite ithna-ashari belonging to the al-jafari sect. The rest of you belong to sects, subsects, madhabs, and cultural divisions as specific as mine. We all believe in different ideologies and different hadiths. That said, we all share one shahada – that there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his messenger.

    So, YES, we all have a slightly different version of the “truth” and that is why we are all disagreeing. But let’s all focus on what we have in common! So what if there’s a variety in belief and practice? Who cares? Live and let live. Listen/read only if you want to, and share if you want to. There’s no right or wrong that can be determined by one human, wa Allahu A3lam. God knows everything. The only thing we know is to be true to our selves and to our God (swt).

    It is my belief that these differences are intentional of Islam and will ultimately contribute to this great religion’s success. One day, we will all unite and let our differences lead us against those influenced by Iblis, and we will win.

    The benefit of having these differences is that we will appeal to a wider variety of people. And since our shahada is one and the same, this is the real message that we are sending out. When the “growth” of Islam has reached its peak, and a maximum of people have accepted the shahada (thanks to our variety), then this will give rise to a new era. When Islam is spread, there will be bigger and better resources of information and we will be better able to find the ‘truth’. There will be more of us willing to unite and work together in order to do this research. Have faith in what makes a muslim a MUSLIM – it is no more than the understanding of our one God and his last prophet. The rest is history – literally.

    The secrets are all in the Quran. We just haven’t been around for long enough to decode it yet. I do not believe that it was any more understood during the prophet’s time than it is now. We know this because we know that our differences were born the moment the prophet passed. He gave us the message, and we have struggled to make sense of it. Maybe it was intentional, and maybe it was not. Time will tell – wa Allahu a3lam.

    Kudos to Zaraf for making the most sense and always providing very strong support for his/her statements. (Sorry I wasn’t sure if the name is masc or fem).

    My father did beat my mother, lightly. I remember that it made her cry. Not because it hurt her physically (it didn’t!), but because it hurt her emotionally. As important, my father was just as hurt emotionally because he was expressing this “beating” of a woman that he loves. It took many years to develop the beautiful marriage they have today and I hope the same thing for myself one day. He still hurts today for the times he “beat” her when he was at fault, but SHE is thankful for the times he “beat” her when SHE was in deed at fault. She admits to her mistakes, and he admits to his.

    Yes, a man can use his physical superiority to control a woman; but a woman can use her emotional superiority to control a man. I have seen women play mind games, decline sexual activities, refuse duties, etc.., in order to control their husbands. A woman has rights in a marriage (as listed previously), and so does a man (as you all have discussed). Their rights are different, and they can use them to sustain this bond, when needed, and as a last resort. This is not as common today because the duties of men and women have changed with culture, and our understanding of one another has developed. But, if the scenario does arise, I think a slap on the face can speak a million words – regardless of whether it’s by the man or his wife. (Though I think most women are aware that they can do a lot more with their mind than they can with slapping their husbands. Sorry ladies! If you can use your emotions, we can use our strength)

    p.s Shari3a (at least as dictated by Sistani, Tabrizi, and a few other Sheite scholars) also states that if it is illegal to beat a wife in this country, then it is forbidden to practice this beating. Islam is a law-obiding opractice.

    Also, if a man beats his wife, he is responsible for the consequences. That could be anything! She could start hating him, or could pressure for a divorce. The man has to be very hesitant when using this method. Since it follows having a family member from each side provide counselling, then who is “right” and who is “wrong” should be very clearly established and agreed upon before this could commence. It can only happen if they have all agreed that the woman is at fault. Though, if the woman has enough reason, she will change her ways when she sees that her own family member has voted against her. If it is established that the man is at fault, and he still beats her because he is not happy with the resolution, then he will be at fault and judged before God. But, if he has enough sense, he will change his ways. If he is at fault, and he does not beat his wife but will not change his ways, then the wife can deprive him of everything (ie. a woman’s way of “beating”) until he changes his ways, or grants a divorce.

  207. Ali

    In theory, the woman can also beat her husband if he is at fault. Most women, though, have more effective methods by which men can be pursuaded. Women must realize that men do not have that same talent, and most women are not receptive to that kind of emotional persuation (we see this in how women “see through” other women). All we have is strength and reason. You have love, sex, happiness, sadness. You control these factors, and you hold together families. You are as powerful as (if not more so than) us, but by different means. At one point, it seemed that only a woman was righteous enough to deserve God’s message (Surat Mariam) and she was given Jesus (peace be upon him). Who, by the way, IS coming back lol. I can’t believe the integrity of that verse was questioned hehe.

    Does anyone know of any documented theories linking Jinn/used to be able to travel to heavens/space?/seeing the future/theory of relativity/traveling at speed of light?

  208. Aalia Canadian

    Ann, I dont think Baber’s daughter is going to become a gay LoL…Aminah, I have heard people on television use “can of words” phrase but I dont hear it used often (if ever) in real life. Maybe one of my friends quoted their grandma using that phrase LoL…Ali, nice post but I have to correct you on something: Not ALL Muslims belong to a certain sect or madhab etc. For example, my husband and I identify ourselves as MUSLIM. Nothing else. We follow Qu’ran and Sunnah, and we dont associate ourselves to any sects LoL With madhabs, we follow whichever has the strongest evidence on the topic at hand. One of our favourite Sheikhs is Yusuf Qardawi. I have a very close friend from Baghdad and her family is Shi’a, and another friend also from Baghdad but her family is Sunni. We all get along and I know there are differences on opinions but we all say the Shahada together. Anyways, one thing that kind of makes me tick is when a Muslim says to me, “Are you Sunni or Shi’a? If your Sunni, Asalaam alaikum.” UFFFF what the hamburgers?? I wanted to yell at that dude and be like “who cares?” Haha but I kept my mouth shut. I hate conversations when people talk about Shi’a in a bad way, ya know, calling them non-Muslims or other things. I always say, let Allah (SWT) be the Judge in this matter, as He is in ALL matters. Afterall, Allahu a3lim! Am a convert for almost 2 yrs al7amdulillah and I think its kinda sad that some who have been Muslim all their life have that anti-Shi’a thingy going on. If I can let it go, cant they? Oh well. I am sad to admit that when I first came to Islam I was told that Shi’a are not Muslims blah blah and I actually believed it AT FIRST. But al7amdulillah, I let go of that foolish thinking. Ali your right tho, y3ni if we unite we wont let Iblis win. He is our biggest enemy. Oopsies this is turned into a long post! One quick thing to add about the “beating lightly” issue is that in all 8 months of marriage to my husband, he hasnt raised his hand to me. I made him pretty angry by saying or doing stupid things I shudnt have but he keeps remembering Sunnah: Prophet Muhammed (SAWS) never hit one of his wives. We try to follow the example of our beloved Prophet, right? I have to try harder by cutting some habits like listening to music but am kinda struggling:P Anyways again sorry for this long post! Take care all:)

  209. Ali

    Before I even knew how to pray, I felt a hostility toward certain sects because I felt they were cult-like (I wont say which, but I will say that I am not talking about sunnies). But, the shia that taught me to pray taught me that to be hostile toward those sects is a sin because it discredits their shahada which is the same as mine. So, even if they seem crazy, to say they are liars, sinners, kuffar, khawarij, etc.. is like saying that their shahada is a lie.. when it is not.

    I do not differentiate among muslims. The differences are politics and it is not fair to judge based on these man-created differences. The Quran is still one (contrary to what some sunnies say, we have the same Quran), and the message is loud and clear. Hereditary rule vs. theology vs. divine right etc.. are political ideas. They have given us a wider variety of stories of “what the prophet did” and has corrupted his message. The Quran is protected, and that is what I follow.

    I do not label myself as “shia”, but only muslim, like you. But, the way in which I practice Islam is based on the teachings/hadiths of the 4th Caliph, who lived during the prophet’s time as well, because I believe he was the rightful successor. He is in your hadiths too, but there was a dispute between the first caliph and him. I don’t think it matters, as I have explained above, I think this variety will benefit us. If it wasn’t intentional, God (swt) would have chosen a prophet who could write down his own practices for us. But, instead, his choice was perfect.

  210. Ali

    Aalia – I too had difficulty giving up music, and I still find myself resorting to it sometimes. What I did was download a program called “Quran Reciter” (freeware, google it and download it. It has has the written Arabic verse, three written English translations, and Arabic audio recitations in the form of mp3’s for each chapter). I burned the mp3’s onto a disc and left it in my car. This recitation sounds quite musical. Also, it helped that I tossed all of the CD’s that were in my car originally, so I don’t have a choice. 🙂 It was hard to let go of Daddy Yankee, but I’m sure it’ll be worth it in the loooong run.

    Surat Al-Rahman in surround sound and double sub-woofers is quite an experience.

  211. Nareen

    yeh..living in the western society (i live in the US), im exposed to the culture here, like music for example. i go to a public school where the coolest thing is Eminem or Akon, and to ‘fit in’, you have to recognize them, listen to them..and obviously thats against Islam, so it does get hard. for a period in my life, i was into music, like addicted. i would secretly in my room listen to the CDs in that my ‘friends’ from school burned for me. And i noticed i would not pray on time; and would read less Qur’an. My parents never caught me so it got worse, and like a bad habit it was really hard to quit. i noticed i became more rude to my parents and i didnt like it. by that time i had a case of 12-13 CDs in a case i found in my house. i remember one day after school i couldent find them. i still to this day dont kno what happened to them, but im glad it did happen. thank God, i might to this day still have been doing the haraam, but now alhaumdulillah, im in university..and when im done with my studies, i like to kick back and listen to the Quran being recited. i never understood how beautiful it was, and i probably will never comprehend all its beauty within my lifetime, bcuz its the word of the Almighty Allah (swt). just listening to it relaxes me, especially b4 an exam, lol..but yeh. to anyone who occasionally turns on the radio thinking it’ll do no harm, its not worth the chance. like you take care of your mind (education) and body (hygiene&health) you need to take care of you soul, bcuz its your soul that will raise out of you body after you die. And music is the voice of shaitan. WOW! i just noticed how much i wrote! ill end here. jazakalla khir.
    Salam alaikum

  212. Serenity

    I thought that Islam supported free will. “Beating” and emotional manipulation are all forms of trying to control another person. So, say for Ali since he mentioned it (or others), what would be an example of conduct that would warrant a “beating?” Personally, I think you overstress the differences with regard to which sex has the corner on the market regarding strength, reason, love, sex, happiness and sadness. While men are phsyically stronger, there is no reason a woman cannot be emotionally strong or logical. And in the same vein a man could be ruled by emotions: love, anger, jealousy, sadness, despair. I’m not sure how either for of “beating,” physical or emotional is respectful or necessary to the other person. If you cannot use the brain that God gave you to change the person’s mind, perhaps is it not your task to to do the changing. Marriage should be a partnership not a power struggle.

    Secondly, I highly doubt that it’s always conducted in such a controlled manner. In fact, you know it’s not. There should be better safety nets for women in such circumstances. And you mention divorce but then the woman loses the children, right?

  213. Ann

    Aminah I don’t know if they will make Layla (Baber’s daughter) a lesbian (though from their perspective it would create s a lot of productive story lines) but I do know the issue of homosexuality will intrude upon the show again somehow.

    It is one of the major parts of the agenda this show is trying to promote.

    Homosexuality is destructive to society. We only have to look at our Western society to see the damage that has been done. And Gay Marriage substantially weakens the bedrock of any society – that is the family unit. Marriage has already been weakened by people getting divorces all the time. It is an institution in crisis because of that. Therefore we need to find ways to strengthen the institution of marriage, not weaken it further.

  214. Shazia

    Salaams/Peace to all

    Binmugahid:

    “Yes, I would hand over my son, wife, Mother, whoever to a Muslim court if he is an appostate”

    Steady on old boy. My understanding is apostasy is a capital crime if accompanied by treason to the state. Otherwise, Allah clearly states in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion and that the punishment for apostates lies in the next life.

    “But make no mistake my friend, call Mohammad or My religion anything other than within the boundaries of scientific Critique in my face and you will have to answer to one angry Muslim. It is interesting how I always run into Muslim haters like you, but they never, ever ever, dare say things like that to a me in my face. I guess they are too scared of crossing a line and finding out how far a Muslim is willing to go to prove a point.”

    If you truly are willing to physically harm Former Muslim for his insults, that is just the sort of behaviour which has given us Muslims and Islam such a bad name and who knows, maybe that’s why he/she has become disillusioned with Islam.

    “I guess they are too scared of crossing a line and finding out how far a Muslim is willing to go to prove a point.”

    They already did cross the line with the cartoons affair and discovered how far some Muslims are willing to go; you know who I mean, the ones who burnt buildings and attacked non-Muslims.

    I will remind you that we are duty bound to obey the laws of the land we live in.

    Islam teaches us to control ourselves and our anger in the face of insult and ridicule and the Prophet was the perfect example of this. My favourite story is of when he used to walk past an old lady’s house everyday and everyday she would throw garbage over him and hurl insults. One day, he walked past and she didn’t come out so he went and knocked her door and discovered she was ill. When she saw his concern for her, she regretted her behaviour and became a Muslim.

    Serenity:

    “It kind of leaves everyone hanging. Wondering how do you get married?”

    Generally, you are introduced to a potentially suitable person by family or friends, or you meet someone at work/school or you go to a matchmaking service on the Internet etc.

    “I don’t know why the fireman was just not invited to a family dinner if they wanted to get to know each other. Would that have been O’K? Obviuously he would need to convert if he was serious about her.”

    Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslim men, the reason being it would be harder for the woman to practice Islam and to raise any children as Muslim. So any Muslim woman seriously committed to her faith will abide by that rule.

    There are Muslim women who will also avoid relationships with non-Muslims more out of fear of their family’s reaction or, if they are in one, they will keep it a secret. There are many cases where Muslim women have ended up marrying non-Muslims and the families have either accepted it or disowned them. Usually an effort is made to encourage the guy to convert, even though strictly speaking you are only supposed to convert if you truly accept the religion not for the sake of marriage. However, there are many cases of non-Muslims converting to Islam so they could marry a Muslim woman and thereafter they accepted Islam for themselves.

    “And is this the first time that Yasir has taken anything regarding Islam seriously?”

    I think Yasir was just being an overprotective Dad, he wasn’t really taking Islam seriously.

    Aaminah:

    “Does anyone think that sitcoms (and dramas, too, for that matter) tend to mature (usually) in subsequent seasons? This being Little Mosque’s first season, they probably have a lot of learning to do–they being the staff and the actors.”

    I would hope they have seriously listened to the feedback from Muslims and non-Muslims. And it would help if they could incorporate more Muslims writers on the team, although I am sure the absence of them is not for lack of trying. As long as Muslims continue to neglect careers in the media, we will have to accept the status quo regarding the presentation of Islam and Muslims in the media. At least Zarqa got up off her chair and tried to do something about it and I truly pray her effort inspires young Muslims to consider following her into the media.

    I can think of 2 Muslim comedians who might fit the bill as scriptwriters: Preacher Moss and Azhar Usman.
    http://www.allahmademefunny.com/

    Serenity:

    “Personally, I think you overstress the differences with regard to which sex has the corner on the market regarding strength, reason, love, sex, happiness and sadness. While men are phsyically stronger, there is no reason a woman cannot be emotionally strong or logical. And in the same vein a man could be ruled by emotions: love, anger, jealousy, sadness, despair.”

    I totally agree with this comment. For instance, women are always criticised for gossiping and being noisy at the mosque but I find men do EXACTLY the same. Thanks Aalia Canadian for the reminder that our beloved Prophet never beat his wives. I am sorry to say that I don’t think today’s Muslims, men or women, come remotely close to the calibre of the early Muslims in knowledge or practice and today’s Muslim husband should put the thought of beating as an option completely out of his head.

    Too many Muslim male abusers will justify their anger and violence by saying the Quran and hadith permit it, a total distortion.

  215. Waleed

    wow! this forum was meant to be for the discussion of the show but all i read is people arguing over religion and crisizing islam and what not. grow up people, it only a show thats meant to make people laugh.

  216. Ann

    The showis meant to push a Leftist social agenda.

  217. Serenity

    Shazia,

    They went for the shallow approach with Jeff but for a while it looked like he might convert for her. So if he had become Muslim Jeff could he then be invited to family dinners as a way to get to know Rayyan better? With Babar’s daughter and the boy, would it be alright to have a study session if Babar were home and say at the same table reading a book while they studied? BTW I don’t think mixed faith marriages work anyway.

    Aminah,

    I think Zarqa was brave to do this. It must be a bit painful to see the outcome since she did not always have control. Her series was a bit a fresh air though. It’s so dispressing to only hear a negative story all the time.

    Shazia et al again,
    Abuse is certainly not isolated to any one people or economic group. Not that long ago corporal punishment was common in my country for children. Even at school children were being hit. A ruler being broken over your hand was not that uncommon. Physical punishment can be easier and work faster than other options but what are you teaching? The might makes right and those who are more powerful can rule by fear? Since then most people have adopted other methods of raising children and learned new ways of dealing with discipline. You don’t have to have corporal punishment in your life with regards to children so why would you need that in your marriage? And I don’t think that it’s something very ease to control. It’s like alcohol, once the box is opened for some people it’s opened. However lightly the beatings are that is no way to live or live with someone you supposedly care about. If your coworker at the next desk fails you several times are you then entitled to beat him with your laptop? And the part about avoiding the face and not bruising is creepy because you can be hurt and noone will ever know about it. It keeps the beatings hidden. Like I said this certainly is not a “Muslim” issue but I think that some Islamic countries are not supportive enough for women in difficult situations.

    So even though Ali saw this with his parents, it might not be a choice that he would make with his wife. It is not the path you must take to have a good marriage anymore than spanking must be used with raising children. And if you meet a woman who would use sex as a weapon during arguments, don’t marry her. It’s not what intimacy is all about. And I’m not an expert but I don’t think the Quran suggests that women do that either.

    Waleed,
    If the purpose of the show was to facilitate conversation and understanding, I think it’s hitting it’s mark.

  218. Ann

    The humour in the show is just to encourage people to watch. The agendas behind the show is to promote a Leftist political and social agenda.

    The Left has been responsible for destroying Western society, and now it wants to do the same for Islam.

    I recommend that people listen to Michael Savage.

    http://streamingradioguide.com/radio-show.php?show=328

  219. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    I recommend that people NOT listen to Michael Savage, ;).

    Or balance it out with Mikey and

    Amy Goodman:).

    http://www.democracynow.org/

    And keep in mind a balance is what is encouraged in Islam. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) advocated moderate views.

    So, with respect to ‘Ann’s’ views;

    I believe it is important to research all sides of any issue, whoever is researching, whether reading on-line, taking classes, utilizing public libraries, or other media outlets, etc.

    And give the ‘researcher’ space, respect their intelligence to seek knowledge ‘as far as China,’ (if need be), as the Prophet (PBUH) emphasized:).

    Salam to All –

  220. binmugahid

    I’m not touching this conversation with a twenty foot pole.

  221. Shazia

    Hi Serenity:

    “So if he had become Muslim Jeff could he then be invited to family dinners as a way to get to know Rayyan better?”

    In that instance, he most certainly could do so.

    “With Babar’s daughter and the boy, would it be alright to have a study session if Babar were home and say at the same table reading a book while they studied?”

    I am sure many Muslims would disagree with me but I think it would be acceptable if a chaperone was present. After all, many Muslims must deal with the opposite sex at work, school, college on a daily basis and often have to work together on projects etc. Practising Muslims know well what the boundaries are and will always pick a public place in which to work or ensure a third party is present. Many Muslim parents I know don’t object to interaction if it is for these reasons.

  222. binmugahid

    Oh, and Shazia

    I have one thing to say to you, Puhleeeeezzzzzzz.

  223. Ann

    Michael Savage has said many times that most Muslims in America are good. And that the reason that so many Muslims hate America elsewhere is because of the culture that the Left has created.

    These McGee’s. These Leftists, they come on like your friends, but how could they ever be? They want to destroy your values. You saw what they are doing with this show through promoting homosexuality. They aren’t your friends.

    Check out Michael Savage as he is the direction America is going. But you have to listen to him for a week or so because he does use hyperbole, satire and scarcasm which can be misinterpreted for people who just turn in for a few shows. He is much more complex than that.

    http://streamingradioguide.com/radio-show.php?show=328

  224. Ann

    Define the term “moderate views.”

    Say one group says the world is flat and the other group says its round?

    Would the position of the moderate be that it’s square?

    Or would a moderate say that they don’t know if the world is flat or round but both sides have good points.

    Point is if one side is wrong or if one side is right, there is no middle ground. Some things are that clear.

  225. Aalia Canadian

    Hey all:)

    Shazia wrote, “After all, many Muslims must deal with the opposite sex at work, school, college on a daily basis and often have to work together on projects etc. Practising Muslims know well what the boundaries are and will always pick a public place in which to work or ensure a third party is present.”

    I agree with this, as my husband attends Uni and has to work on projects/study sessions with girls. He always makes sure they are not alone and he knows the boundaries. But if it were the other way around and it was me—well thats another story LoL I am not complaining, am just saying my husband and I have a silent understanding. He is quite a bit older than me (he is 27 and I am 18) and I trust his judgement. Some would assume there is a “double-standard” in Islamic families between the men and women, and I have even seen this in my own eyes, but its more cultural. Studying with the opposite sex in public is fine, but Baber’s daughter acting kinda sneaky bringing that boy without her father’s permission into the house was not cool. I wonder what would happen if I brought a guy over to study without my husband’s permisson. HAH LoOoOoL omg I dont even wanna think about it! On a totally different note, Afghanis are a really handsome people. I like looking at different people of the world, especially races that are mixed with eachother. LoL oh uhhh anyways kinda off topic, me better come back later:P

    Salaam alaikum:)

  226. Ali

    Serenity – I know “beating” doesn’t happen in a controlled way, and that is how it is practiced incorrectly. When I say “at fault”, I mean with issues that are very rare and extremely critical, like adultry or sodomy or that sort of thing. I am not an angry person, in fact I have never been in a fight and probably never will, but I have seen situations where a slap is justified and was the best solution after nothing else worked. I have seen a slap save a marriage (it was actually a woman slapping a man). Would I ever do it? Probably not. I’d divorce before I beat anyone, but, for the general public, I can see why men need to use their physical strength and women need to use their mental strength (or vice versa, as sometimes there are exceptions and we cannot generalize) and, as I said earlier.. “when needed, and as a last resort”… equate that to “once in a lifetime, if at all”.

    Peace

  227. Ali

    (“once in a lifetime, if at all”… unless your wife is a common sl*t who can’t help it or your husband likes it up the wazoo and wont stop)

    (laugh, be repulsed, or ignore, but don’t be offended by the vulgarity)

  228. Ann

    Mark Levin is also a good source to understand “The Culture War”.

    http://streamingradioguide.com/radio-show.php?show=309

    Savage is better but Levin would be my second choice.

    The enemy IS the LEFT!

  229. M

    Salam to Everyone,

    ‘Ann:’

    I’m sorry I have not had the time to post a reply concerning ‘moderate views.’

    I hope to by early next week. I have a deadline to meet and won’t be able to post for awhile.

    Mostly what I would like to do is share some references to what I was attempting to explain.

    Mainly about moderation in views and practices. If someone else has some views, references on this to share, that would be great:)!

    Thanks Ann, for your patience.

    Salam to All –

  230. Alice

    The problem with the word “moderate” is that often there is a right and there is a wrong, so taking a “middle position” would be taking a position that is partly wrong.

  231. Greg

    I found the whole “pamphlet” thing condescending.

  232. Shazia

    Salaams/Peace to all

    Binmugahid, this is for you:

    Dealing with blasphemy in non-Muslim lands

    Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani
    (www.sunnipath.com)

    I have a question and I understand there is nothing much we can do but I am hoping for some guidance from you folks.

    Every now and then you hear of extremely blasphemous words and comments that insult and degrade our Prophet peace be upon him and the Holy Quran. For example, I once did a google search on Quran looking for an ayah and one of the ads that came along was Quran toilet paper being given away for free. I was so sick and disgusted with this. I felt guilty for ignoring it and not doing anything about it. I complained to CAIR who did not respond to my email. The thing is this is just one of the many examples of the nasty things a muslim come across living in the west and its really upsetting . How did the Prophet peace be upon Him and his noble Ahl Bayt and Sahaba deal with these things blasphemies when they were minorities and when they were the dominant community?

    Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

    I pray that this finds you well, and in the best of health and spirits. May Allah grant you all good and success in this life and the next.

    How to deal with it (blasphemy) in non-Muslim society.

    One’s only recourse is the law of the land–and community pressure–to redress the wrong, because Muslims do not take the law into their own hands, and abide by the law of the land.

    It is a communal obligation to deal with such matters in the right manner.

    And Allah alone gives success.

    Faraz Rabbani

  233. Shazia

    Hi Greg

    Why did you find the pamphlet thing condescending?

  234. Greg

    Because it says that we MUST understand Islam.

    Sorry, we don’t have to understand an alternative lifestyle. We shouldn’t discriminate against those who practice an alternative lifestyle but they shouldn’t expect us to understand them.

  235. Greg

    You really need to look into CAIR and what they are really all about. They are pushing Americans to the boiling point.

    This most recent lawsuit against that Airline and some of the passengers is going to be the last straw for many Americans.

    http://www.danielpipes.org/article/394

    CAIR receives funds from foreign governments. How much longer to you think that is going to be allowed?

    Instead of being supportive, CAIR is being confrontational. Confrontation isn’t the way to encourage people to believe that Muslims are as loyal as the next guy. The world needs to know that CAIR doesn’t speak for all Muslims.

    Here is a group that Muslims should support.

    http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=2988

    CAIR is acting like an internal enemy of America. Do you think political correctness isn’t building resentment? CAIR is CAUSING what it claims to be fighting against.

  236. Serenity

    Ali,
    thanks for the clarification and your honesty (even when it’s too detailed!) Guess we won’t have to fax out a warning label for you to stick on your forehead. 😉

    I forgot about Sarah grabbing her husband’s rear. I think that this show is being writen by secular writers who don’t have a clue how ANY religion functions nevermind Islam.

    Greg
    What is wrong with a pamphlet if you ASK for more information. It isn’t like they are going door to door. And I do think the flying imams are purposely causing trouble.

    Shazia,
    Quran TP I had not heard of that. There are people who insist on being hateful and as wisely observed by Mr. Rabbani, there are ways to deal with them within the constraints of non-Muslim society. Most people want to be nice. If you hold these people up hatemongers they are, people will rally around you. And if it is not settled in this life, don’t you think it will be in the next? At the same time you have some people going out of their way to make Muslims feel included even if they are confused. Did you read the story from the UK where one school changed words of The Three Little Pigs so they would not offend Muslims. They changed it to the Three Little PUPPIES!

  237. Shazia

    Hi Serenity, salaam to all
    ” At the same time you have some people going out of their way to make Muslims feel included even if they are confused. Did you read the story from the UK where one school changed words of The Three Little Pigs so they would not offend Muslims. They changed it to the Three Little PUPPIES!”

    That sounds vaguely familiar but quite a few PC moves are made without asking the people involved.

    The most recent is a council banned the use of the word Christmas to avoid offending Muslims when they weren’t even asked and weren’t bothered at all and then, the Muslims themselves supported the campaign to reinstate ‘Christmas’.

    If Muslims can have Eid, Jews can have Hannukah, Hindus can have Diwali, then why can’t Christians have Christmas in their own country! I don’t like it when I hear Happy Holidays etc, its like something from 19984.

  238. Shazia

    Plus, Christmas has always been one of my favourite times of the year, I love the atmosphere.

  239. Greg T.

    Shazia we need people like you to speak out against CAIR. All they are doing is making more and more people angry against Muslims.

    I surely want to include Muslims in American society, but I don’t want to not be able to practice my traditions.

    And Americans need to have some basic common sense when it comes to our security. I really believe that the the main cause of 9-11 was fear of CAIR. The FBI knew there were people being trained at a flight school who really didn’t care about learning how to land a plane but didn’t do anything about it out of fear of how CAIR would react.

    Surely you don’t want to see another terrorist attack, but CAIR is making that a very strong likelihood. At the very least CAIR is making Americans very, very angry by them being confrontational and not only suing an airline that was only trying to protect its passengers but also suing passengers as well.

    Muslims need to speak out against CAIR. Americans are reaching a boiling point and if you don’t want them to think that all Muslims are bad you need to stand up to this organization that claims to represent you but doesn’t act in your best interests.

  240. Greg T.

    We need to fight the “Politically Correct” crowd. They are a bunch of fascists al la 1984.

    In the end they just build up resentment and worst could lead to the government doing things that is harmful to our interests (like not investigate suspicious activity or not protecting our borders).

  241. Aminah

    Some of you might find http://www.peacethrujustice.org interesting.

  242. Greg T.

    This group supports Zacarias Moussaoui. By doing that, this group supports terrorism.

    Actions like that sends a far greater message then some pamphlet or 100 shows like “Little Mosque”. It makes people think (perhaps correctly) that the Muslims living among us are not our friends and are a cause of concern.

    And then you have CAIR suing that airline and some of its passengers and you wonder why people still mistrust Muslims after all the efforts to say that they are just as much opposed to terrorism as everyone else.

    I can promise you that actions speak louder than words and I can promise you that Political Correctness isn’t going to hold Americans back forever. In fact it is just adding more pressure to the angry mix that will some day explode.

    Either you can be part of the problem like CAIR and this other organization, or you can let us know that you don’t support terrorism (or do you)?

  243. Greg T.

    Aminah the web page you mentioned was to an organization that supports terrorists.

    Surely you did that in error.

  244. JooJoo

    Hello,
    When you want to get married, you tell ur parents. They go on a hunt to find the best bride for u (im a man). they will meet with families, talk to people and see if a girl is good for their son. Then they will show a picture to the guy and ask him if hes interested so far. Then with the OK of both parents, the two young people go talk to each other, with telephone, email, messangers … what ever gets the job done. And we see what happens from there … in Iran it used to be like this. Well actually if you wana ask the girl to marry u , u get to their house with ur parents, and there they asked for the girl. But its all up to the girl and the boy if they wana marry. the parents are just there to help these to reach each other.
    Of course now, the young people do what ever they want in Iran, but there is still some people who do it this way. The muslims in Iran are shiite, so they are extremly relaxed about these things.
    (Sorry for my very bad spelling and all) im way tired right now hehehehe

  245. Greg T.

    CAIR is leading us to another 9-11.

    Are they doing this on purpose? I don’t know. But that will be the result of their actions.

    What they have done certainly qualifies as making them domestic enemies of America.

  246. Ann

    Shazia do you think your religion is the only religion that is a target of disrespect in the Western World.

    Christianity is under constant attack.

    Here are just a few examples.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49925

    A University of Oregon student newspaper published cartoons showing Jesus Christ naked and with an erection. The same newspaper also published cartoons with Jesus having homosexual sex.

    A photographer called Andres Serrano used $15,000 of US National government money to finance Piss Christ, a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine.

    The TV cartoon “South Park” had a scene where Jesus Christ defecated on President Bush.

    Look, I understand that Jesus isn’t considered God in your religion, but unless I am mistaken isn’t Jesus considered in your religion a holy person deserving of respect. Therefore and attack on Jesus isn’t only an attack upon Christianity but upon Islam as well, isn’t it?

    It would be great if Muslims speak out when Jesus is mocked and disrespected as it is happening with increasing frequency today. The mockers will not listen to Christians but perhaps they will listen to you.

  247. Sue

    One of the things that the show never protrays is the actual prayer service (or whatever the term is) that is conducted at the Mosque.

    Would it be offensive to protray that?

    Also, would you find it offensive if government officials put up cameras in the Mosque to track who attends the Mosque? I am a Christian and if a similar situation where terrorists were using churches to meet and organize plots were occurring I would be all in favor of cooperating with government officials in such a way. If you want, I would encourage my church to do so right now, especially since some churches do harbor illegal aliens and therefore cameras might be a good way to stop that.

    I feel it would be a good way to distinquish the good from the bad. Sure not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are currently Muslims. After 9-11 we are in a relatively extreme position worrying about another more serious attack. And like WWII when you are extreme situation you must take measures that would seem extreme in other contexts. But this way wouldn’t be too intrusive to the Muslim community and would save lives. Hopefully this wouldn’t be something permanent.

    Christians welcome non-Christians to their church all the time and sometimes even televise their services. Is there anything in Islam that says that the service should be done in private, away from non-believers?

  248. Gus

    Why don’t they have a woman character on the show who wears a burqa?

    If you want to pick one thing that really freaks out Westerners, it’s a burqa/niqab .

    Part of it is because since we can’t see the woman’s face, we can’t identify her if need be.

    Also it just looks freaky (to us).

    Having a woman on the show who wears a burqa and is an active member of the community would be interesting.

  249. Ann

    Here is another attack on Jesus.

    http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1084924

    The images also include one of Christ with female private parts.

  250. Aalia Canadian

    Hello all:)

    Ann, your right, as Muslims we shud have more of a reaction to Prophet `Isa (Jesus) alayhim-asalaam **which means peace be upon him, or abbreviated AS** He is a very important Prophet to us, and I have seen him being portrayed on South Park. I always change the channel when I see this, this is very insulting!

    Sue, non-Muslims are always welcome to the mosque for any prayer. I bring non-Muslim friends to Friday prayers, which is where all the Muslim community comes to listen to a lecture and pray. Kinda like Sunday church. Btw dont blame us for not showing our prayers on TV, blame the Western channel stations LoL We have lots of video footage of our prayers being done at many mosques around the world, especially the mosque in Makkah Saudi Arabia. The only channels that show images of these are satelite stations in Arabic and YouTube LoL well, in case your interested to see what a prayer looks like, here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq0LGO6UdBY

  251. Sue wrote: “One of the things that the show never protrays is the actual prayer service (or whatever the term is) that is conducted at the Mosque. Would it be offensive to protray that?”

    Not necessarily, although filming is normally done from the front or the side. When we prostrate ourselves, no one really wants to see hundreds or thousands of backsides. 😉

    “Also, would you find it offensive if government officials put up cameras in the Mosque to track who attends the Mosque?”

    If the authorities wanted to know who attends masajid (plural for masjid or mosque), it would be easier for them to film as people left. Many masajid around the world have several levels to them, and even there, many people may pray outdoors if the crowds are too large.

    “Sure not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are currently Muslims.”

    This is not true.

    “Christians welcome non-Christians to their church all the time and sometimes even televise their services. Is there anything in Islam that says that the service should be done in private, away from non-believers?”

    Prayer in Islam is normally a private matter and should not be done “for show.” However, that doesn’t mean that others cannot view the prayer (salat) being held. Often, when masajid have open houses, non-Muslims will view one of the salat. However, unless they understand Arabic, they are unlikely to understand what is being said.

  252. One other comment regarding why the prayer (salat) isn’t shown on the show: it’s too long. 🙂 While salat is quite short (3 to 5 minutes or so), that would be up to 25% of a 21-minute sitcom. So, just for the sake of time considerations, I would never expect LMOTP to show a full-length salat.

  253. Greg wrote: “Because it says that we MUST understand Islam.”

    In the show, the brochure was given to only one person, who expressed an interest in Islam. Islam is not the missionary religion it’s made out to be.

    But even so, let’s look at your claim, that non-Muslims “MUST understand Islam.” No, no one’s forcing you to understand Islam. If non-Muslims want to remain in a state of ignorance, Muslims are not going to get upset about it. However, when ignorant comments are made by non-Muslims, yes, we will generally try to correct the errors and educate people.

    BTW, as for your anti-CAIR comments, they won’t really cut a lot of ice with Muslims. CAIR does a lot of good work on behalf of Muslims and, in return, receives a lot of support from the Muslim community. My observation over the years is that non-Muslims who dislike CAIR resent that they are both highly visible and successful. (There are a number of other Muslim organizations who do work similar to CAIR’s, but are not nearly as visible or successful as CAIR and, thus, don’t receive nearly as much flak as CAIR does.) Organizations like the one you suggested are largely ignored by the Muslim community because they are seen to be beholden to vested interests that are Islamophobic. These organizations, which may or may not be staffed by Muslims, appeal to people like yourselves because they tell you what you want to hear. Their credibility among Muslims is next to nothing. So, no matter how close you and people like you think they are to “the boiling point” regarding organizations like CAIR, it won’t really matter as far as we’re concerned.

  254. Serenity

    Greg,

    What do you specifically have against CAIR?

    Sue, I think that you are off the wall with your suggestion to have cameras in mosques. Big Brother has arrived. So your theory is that all citizens should be treated as criminals because some may be? Practically this falls apart, too. Who is going to analyzes all this data? Don’t you think that if certain places were monitored deviant business would be held elsewhere? So should our every move and conversation be monitored. Please if you don’t want any freedom or rights that’s your choice but don’t suggest that for everyone else.

  255. Ann

    CAIR is harming America. Do Most North American Muslims want to see another terrorist attack on North American shores?

    If not, fight CAIR.

    Otherwise you are telling us that there is a reason that we should be concerned about the Muslims among us.

  256. Serenity

    How is CAIR harming America specifically?

  257. Ann

    Actually I think Sue made a good idea.

    I wouldn’t mind if my church has cameras in it too just to be “fair”.

    These are not normal times.

    Do you think it is right for the government to restrict the amount of food we can buy or gas we can buy for our cars?

    Yet all of that was done, in America, during WWII.

    After WWII though such restrictions were stopped.

    We have “face recognizition” programs we can use on the cameras to shift through the data. All we want to know is if anyone is coming to the Mosque who might want to harm us. Government officials within the Mosque looking for suspious activity would be good too. I am sure they would take off their shoes.

    These things may seem extreme but it is an extreme time in our history. Hopefully things can return to normal soon and such steps won’t be needed.

  258. Ann

    CAIR is stopping us from taking responable steps to protect our own security.

    Look at what they are doing with the suit against the Airline and some of the passengers. If they win, people will be afraid to report suspicious activity. And officials will be afraid (or I should say more afraid) to do something about it.

    If it wasn’t for CAIR the FBI would have stopped the terrorists who did 9-11 while they were training in Texas to learn how to fly (but not to land) a plane. But because of CAIR they were afraid to take action and nearly 3000 died as a result.

  259. Serenity

    Why not just walk around with cameras strapped to our heads? Then we’d be safe. If you’d like to live in a totalitarian regime be my guest but I certainly don’t. You cannot stop terrorist attacks anymore than you can stop murder. More people die each year from drunk driving. Why don’t we outlaw alcohol again. More people die from heart disease let’s prohibit fatty food and make a mandatory excercise program for all citizens. And if you are worried about Muslims because so many people have died due to them, why not kick them all out of the country? They pass out pamphlets and look funny (when they wear burkas, they’re downright “freaky.”) Clearly, we be better off with just Christian loopies like Timothy McVie and the Wackos from Waco.

  260. Ann

    To the comment:

    “Sure not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are currently Muslims.”

    JDsg responded

    “This is not true.”

    I am assuming that you don’t mean that it’s not true because almost all Muslims ARE terrorists. You are saying that almost all terrorists in the world currently aren’t Muslims.

    Sorry, but it is the case that in 2007 almost all the terrorists in the world (well at least the ones who harm North America) are indeed Muslims.

    Sure you have your enviro-terrorists and they do pop their head up once in a while, but apart from them you have to look very hard to find terrorists who aren’t Muslims.

    The IRA? Well at one time you could point to them but their activity has all but stopped.

    White Supremists, well there are very, very few of them left in America, far fewer who would commit a terrorist attack. You could point to Timothy McVeigh but that was in the 1990s. And we still don’t know what that was all about. It wasn’t about religion as McVeigh was agnostic. It wasn’t about race because his partner Terry Nichols married someone from the Philippines and I believe even had a child by her. We will perhaps never know what really happened. There is a great likelihood that there was a Muslim connection with the whole “John Doe II” thing and the fact that Nichols went to a Muslim part of the Philippines shortly before the attack. Also Oklahoma city was known as a center of Muslim radicalism before the attack.

    So, please tell me, in 2007 of some terrorists who aren’t Muslims. Ones we need to be concerned about.

    Someday it hopefully will not be the case but right now in 2007 but almost all terrorists are Muslims.

  261. Ann

    Serenity said

    “And if you are worried about Muslims because so many people have died due to them, why not kick them all out of the country? ”

    We are hoping it won’t get to that point, but someday it might.

    And as to you comments about McVeigh, again he wasn’t a Christian. And as to the Waco people well they were a cult who took some of their theology from Christianity but mostly were focused upon their leader David Koresh. The way in which the authorities handled the situation showed that they were looking for a fight. David Koresh often went to town so they could have nabbed him there. Also using a tank was illegal because by law the military isn’t supposed to get involved in domestic law enforcement (except in some very extreme cases which are outlined in the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878). I strongly support the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 as I don’t believe our military should be involved inside our country against our own citizens.

  262. Serenity

    “Someday it hopefully will not be the case but right now in 2007 but almost all terrorists are Muslims.”

    “and almost all drunk drivers are non- Muslim.”

    JDsg “My observation over the years is that non-Muslims who dislike CAIR resent that they are both highly visible and successful.” No, JD, it’s because they don’t always make good choices and take the most peaceful path. They do do a lot of good for Muslims but there is an “A” in the name CAIR so the good works need to make sense for all Americans.

  263. Serenity

    ““And if you are worried about Muslims because so many people have died due to them, why not kick them all out of the country? ”

    We are hoping it won’t get to that point, but someday it might.”

    We could always just put them in “camps” like we did the Japanese.

  264. Serenity

    Timothy McVeigh was Catholic and followed the rites to the end.

  265. Ann

    Serenity asked:

    “Why don’t we outlaw alcohol?”

    WE DID.

    Perhaps you don’t know American history as much as you should but alcohol was illegal in the 1920s. It was called Prohibition.

    What happened was lots of people disobeyed the law and went to what was called “speak easies”. Also the prohibition of alcohol lead to the rise of the criminal element who were quite successful at buying off public officials. Ever heard of Al Capone (Nickname was Scarface but no one dared called him that)? He was very involved in the illegal liquor business. It was known as bootlegging. Because of that the different criminal groups would fight each other to get their piece of the action. There were lots of shootings and stuff.

    This was especially true in Chicago. A Federal Agent by the name of Elliot Ness was successful to some degree in bringing down Al Capone (though they never got him on bootlegging but instead they got him on tax evasion).

    So after a decade of a good segment of people not obeying the law but instead going to speakeasies and a decade of gangster violence on the streets of our cities, it was decided to make alcohol legal again.

  266. Ann

    Timothy McVeigh was agnostic. Even CNN had to admit that this was true.

  267. Ann

    CAIR is harming our effort in the war against terror.

    Is that what Muslims really want?

  268. Serenity

    “Perhaps you don’t know American history as much as you should but alcohol was illegal in the 1920s. It was called Prohibition.”

    No kidding. I was being sarcatic. Prohibition solved everything didn’t it just like a camera in every mosque did.

  269. Ann

    Serenity

    We could always just put them in “camps” like we did the Japanese.

    My response.

    Is that really what you want to happen?

    Putting the Japanese in “camps” was an appropriate response to the extreme situation America found itself in after Pearl Harbor. It was necessary.

    The more extreme things become in America the greater the likelihood that we will be forced to do this with Muslims.

    Wouldn’t it just be better to have Federal Agents (shoeless) at the Mosques and cameras so things don’t reach the point when we have to either deport Muslims or put them in camps?

  270. Serenity

    Timothy McVeigh:
    “After his parents’ divorce, McVeigh lived with his father, and his sisters moved to Florida with their mother. He and his father were devout Roman Catholic who often attended daily Mass. In a recorded interview with Time Magazine[2] he professed his belief in “God”. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter claiming to be an agnostic.”

    But….

    “McVeigh invited California conductor/composer David Woodard to perform a requiem (a Mass for those who are about to die) on the eve of his execution, and he had also requested a Catholic chaplain. Ave Atque Vale was performed under Woodard’s baton by a local brass choir at St. Margaret Mary Church, located near the Terre Haute penitentiary, at 7:00 p.m. on June 10, to an audience that included the entirety of the next morning’s witnesses.”

    wikipedia

    Sounds Catholic to me.

  271. Ann

    If CAIR would get out of the way such extreme measures won’t be needed Serenity.

    You really agree with that lawsuit against that airline.

    It seemed like a setup to me (and to most of America).

  272. Serenity

    We could always just put them in “camps” like we did the Japanese.

    My response.

    Is that really what you want to happen?

    Putting the Japanese in “camps” was an appropriate response to the extreme situation America found itself in after Pearl Harbor. It was necessary.

    The more extreme things become in America the greater the likelihood that we will be forced to do this with Muslims.

    Wouldn’t it just be better to have Federal Agents (shoeless) at the Mosques and cameras so things don’t reach the point when we have to either deport Muslims or put them in camps?

    My repsonse. Read my previous response with much sarcasim. The following has no sarcasm. I find your idea to put Federal Agents and camera in every mosque just a bigoted as other past attempts to blame and control entire groups of people based solely on the crimes of others. And I’d fight you to the end to stop such a stupid idea.

  273. Ann

    Wikipedia lied in the case.

    He never requested the Catholic chaplain. At least not initially. The chaplain was there and it was the chaplain who asked McVeigh if he could give him last rights. He said he would think about it and I guess he decided why not, couldn’t hurt.

    http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/11/mcveigh.candiotti.otsc/

    Still, if he did make a “last minute conversion” he was still an agnostic when he supposedly committed the crime.

  274. Ann

    “And I’d fight you to the end to stop such a stupid idea.”

    And by doing so you increase the likelihood of the terrorists committing another act forcing us to enact even more extreme measures.

  275. Serenity

    As I already stated, I think the flying imams were a set-up. So you suggest taking away the civil liberies of all of one group of people if one organization errs. What a lousy solution.

  276. Ann

    If you think it is a set-up then why don’t you speak out against CAIR.

    What they are doing quite possibly will lead to another 9-11 or worse.

    And what is the problem with Federal Agents at your Mosques. Who knows perhaps given the exposure to Islam some of them might convert. In any case they couldn’t do any harm.

  277. Serenity

    “And by doing so you increase the likelihood of the terrorists committing another act forcing us to enact even more extreme measures.”

    And still you won’t be safe and you will no longer be living in America. I don’t have a problem with fighting terrorists. I do have a problem with mistreating American citizens whom you want to convict and punish by withdrawing civil liberties based solely on religion.

  278. Ann

    Were we “living in America” during the 1940s?

  279. Serenity

    Some of us were.

  280. Ann

    But during that time the government rationed what one could buy.

    Does that sound like America?

  281. binmugahid

    Shazia Shazia Shazia

    I really feel for tree hugging hippies, I really do.

    All they can do is turn the other cheek and pretend to be just like a Christian, “No offense to my fellow brothers in believing in God”, but God Damn, that passive behavior lead to the systematic killing, torture, abuse and God knows what else of christians until finally Constantine decided to make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.

    Islam is a very practical religion, it is peaceful to those that are peaceful towards it, and it is not to those that aren’t.

    Let me put it this way, Islam has room for a lot of muslims. We come in all shapes, sizes, dispositions, manners and most importantly reactions to insults about islam.
    Islam has room for the muslims that smile when they are insulted, room for those that walk away , and then there is room for those people that don’t take no mess from nobody.

    I maybe wrong about my standoffish position when it comes to reactions towards insults to Islam, but experience tells me that this approach is better for me and the muslims around me. If we all acted like floor matts, we WILL BE walked upon.

    The fact is, to say that Islam’s position and only position toward aggression towards it is a passive forgiving position would be only part of the story (A part of the story that is highly told by muslims living in the western parts of the world).

    But there are other parts to that story and all are sanctioned by Allah given the proper context.

    I do appreciate the position of some muslims that say (Integrate, become part of the system, change from within). That is a good position no doubt, but there is also the other position, the position that says ( I aint taking no mess from no body), and that is the position of people that don’t get dissed on a regular basis, that don’t get pushed around because when that happens, they don’t let it slide, they take action.

    Finally to the show, I know you are a comedy and all, and I love you for it, but please, don’t even act like there are no muslims like me, who understand Islam very well, and who also excercise thier right to protect and stand up for themselves and choose not to blend in.

    I say, don’t blend in, I say, Stand out. Live among the non-muslims if that is your cup of tea, but don’t blend to the point of invisibility.

  282. Serenity

    Well there you go, we had food rationing 70 years ago so now anything goes. No food rationing does not violate civil liberties. And the ends do NOT justifiy the means. It has taken us a very long time to learn how to be decent to one another. There is no way you’d have support for that crazy bigoted scheme that doesn’t even make sense.

  283. Ann

    Sure food rationing absolutely violates civil liberties. But it was war. It was necessary. And it was removed as soon as the war was over.

  284. Serenity

    Which civil liberty does food rationing violate?

  285. Ann

    binmugahid,

    The saying “Turn the other cheek” is misunderstood even by lots of Christians.

    When Jesus said that he was talking to a bunch of poor people. Here is what He actually said.

    If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Matthew 5:39

    So Jesus is specific in what cheek to turn – the left cheek. Why the left cheek?

    How does one strike another on the right cheek anyway? Try it. A blow by the right fist in that right-handed world would land on the left cheek Of the opponent. To strike the right cheek with the fist would require using the left hand, but. in that society the left hand was used only for unclean tasks. As the Dead Sea Scrolls specify, even to gesture with the left hand at Qumran carried the penalty of ten days’ penance. The only way one could strike the right cheek with the right hand would be with the back of the hand.

    What we are dealing with here is unmistakably an insult, not a fistfight. The intention is not to injure but to humiliate, to put someone in his or her place. One normally did not strike a peer in this way, and, if one did, the fine was exorbitant (four zuz was the fine for a blow to a peer with a fist, 400 zuz for backhanding him; but to an underling, no penalty whatever). A backhand slap was the normal way of admonishing inferiors. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; men, women; Romans; Jews.

    We have here a set of unequal relations, in each of which retaliation would be suicidal. The only normal response would be cowering submission. It is important to ask who Jesus’ audience is. In every case, his listeners are not those who strike, initiate lawsuits, or impose forced labor. Rather, Jesus is speaking to their victims, people who have been subjected to these very indignities. They have been forced to stifle their inner outrage at the dehumanizing treatment meted out to them by the hierarchical system of caste and class, race and gender, age and status, and by the guardians of imperial occupation.

    Why then does Jesus counsel these already humiliated people to turn the other cheek? Because this action robs the oppressor of power to humiliate them. The person who turns the other cheek is saying, in effect, “Try again. Your first blow failed to achieve its intended effect. I deny you the power to humiliate me. I am a human being just like you. Your status (gender, race, age, wealth) does not alter that. You cannot demean me.” Such a response would create enormous difficulties for the striker. Purely logistically, how can he now hit the other cheek? He cannot backhand it with his right hand. If he hits with a fist, he makes himself an equal, acknowledging the other as a peer. But the whole point of the back of the hand is to reinforce the caste system and its institutionalized inequality.

  286. Ann

    Serenity the civil liberty of selling as much food as you can to whomever can pay.

    The buyer loses the ability to purchase the among of food desired, and the seller loses the ability to sell that amount to the seller.

    That is a great lost of civil liberties but it was necessary during WWII. After WWII it ended (and we let the Japanese out of their camps).

  287. Serenity

    We DO NOT have a civil liberty that ensures a free market.

  288. Ann

    “I do appreciate the position of some muslims that say (Integrate, become part of the system, change from within). That is a good position no doubt, but there is also the other position, the position that says ( I aint taking no mess from no body),”

    And there is the position that says we are going to deport you or put you in camps. And don’t think we won’t too if things get too bad. Americans are reaching the boiling point, and CAIR just might have pushed us over with their lawsuit.

    You know, I welcome Muslims to the West but I also wonder why they don’t stay where they are. I would think they would be much happier in their part of the world where they can run things the Muslim way.

  289. Ann

    That people be free in their transactions would be a basic civil liberty.

    How would you like it if a law was passed that said that American Muslims couldn’t sell stuff in America, or that they could only buy a certain amount of stuff each month?

    Rationing violates civil liberties. It’s as simple as that. But it was necessary in the extreme case of being at war during the 1940s and it was removed after the war was over.

  290. Serenity

    Where is this “That people be free in their transactions ” in the constitution or bill of rights?

  291. Ann

    It is just assumed I think. But you didn’t answer my question.

  292. Serenity

    Well it is not. America does not have a true free market. There are many restrictions. Food rationing did not apply to one race of people, it applied to all Americans so your hypothetical is FALSE. It proves nothing about rationing. Rationing does not violate civil liberties. Please go read about them. Here are some; freedom of association, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, also the rights to due process, to a fair trial and to privacy.

    You violate quite a few with your first proposal. Heck you may just hit all of them with one blow. Also you help the terrorists by alienating law abiding Muslims. Which is what they wanted.

  293. Ann wrote: “CAIR is harming America. Do Most North American Muslims want to see another terrorist attack on North American shores? If not, fight CAIR.”

    Ann, do you always use strawman arguments?

  294. Ann wrote: “How would you like it if a law was passed that said that American Muslims couldn’t sell stuff in America, or that they could only buy a certain amount of stuff each month?”

    I’m currently reading a book about Nazi Germany (The Third Reich in Power by Richard Evans), and that’s what the Nazis did to the Jews: all the Jewish businesses were closed down. (Rationing affected the entire country.) So, is that what you’re advocating, Ann? Should Western governments become racist, totalitarian regimes? Did the Nazis win WW2 after all?

    (And don’t bother answering my question about the strawman arguments; I’ve seen you use a number since I wrote that post. Obviously, your answer would be “yes.”)

  295. Greg T.

    If you read the post regarding rationing as closely as I did, you would see that Ann wasn’t advocating that American Muslims shouldn’t be able to sell stuff in America, or that they could only buy a certain amount of stuff each month. In fact she was arguing the reverse.

    Serenity was saying that rationing doesn’t violate civil rights where as Ann was proving that it does.

  296. Greg T.

    Americans are really pissed at CAIR and that lawsuit. It is up to people like you to speak out against CAIR or realize that we will see the Muslims around us as the enemy.

  297. Serenity

    GregAnnSue,

    If you are not all the same person, AnnSueGreg has not proved anything. I’m still waiting for one iota of proof. Please show me in the Constitution or Bill of Rights etc. where a free market is guaranteed. Thanks.

  298. Greg T.

    I like the idea of Federal Officials at the Mosques. I am sure they will be respectful but we need to know who are going there.

  299. Greg T.

    Is it a fair statement to say that in 2007 most of the terrorists in the world are Muslims?

    Check this video.

  300. Greg T.

    It is a satire talking about the fear that the authorities have to state the obvious.

    CAIR is responsible for that!

  301. Greg T.

    Since you brought up Hitler.

    Here is the facts.

  302. Greg T.

    Want to know about CAIR?

  303. Greg T.

    We have fought such terror before.

    Please check out this web site.

  304. Aminah

    I have a friend who told me about Fed agents visiting the mosque after 9/11. He said they were pretty obvious. He said he felt a profound sense of sadness, not only because many Americans felt that the attacker was Islam (and not the extreme psychopaths who did the attacking), but because he felt that he was not experiencing freedom of religion any more. Every Muslim was a suspect. And I suppose that in many cases, we still are.

    BTW, Greg, I posted the peace thru justice foundation website because there is an article on there about how the sectarian violence is the “shame of the ummah (the one, international Muslim community).” No, I do not support terrorism, nor do I think this website does either. It is a human rights organization. I have heard the founder lecture and met him briefly, and my first impression was that of a humble–yet knowledgeable, devout and driven–Muslim. I believe he wants us to open our eyes, increase our knowledge, register to vote, and vote wisely.

    In all fairness to you, I have not read all of the articles; perhaps you have read them and you see a point of view I have missed or not encountered yet. I have had a headache for two days, so I haven’t read anything to counter your claim.

    Ann, we cannot put a group of people in a box any more than we could have put all African Americans on ship and sent them back to Africa in the Civil Rights struggles 40, 50, 60 years ago. And I’m sure that there were plenty of Caucasian Americans who would have been all for it because of the threat they felt when African Americans fought back (be it through boycotts, activities of Black Panthers, or whatever). And OBVIOUSLY there are some folks out there who would be satisfied just to pack up all those Muslims and ship ’em away because they perceive a threat. But the truth is, most of us American Muslims are a far, far cry from a threat. If we are a just nation, then how can we persecute the whole for the sins of a few?

    Serenity–all of it…well said!

    Back to the show…does anyone know when the new season will begin?

    Peace to all of you; may Allah guide us all to an understanding and appreciation of one another.

  305. Greg T.

    Just by having Federal Officials there it doesn’t hinder your freedom of religion. You can go on with your religious service with them there.

    The so-called peace thru justice foundation supported Zacarias Moussaoui, a terrorist.

    We try to be a just nation but sometimes that is not possible, especially when the country is in an extreme situation. When we get into an extreme situation we can get pretty unjust real quick.

  306. Greg T.

    “But the truth is, most of us American Muslims are a far, far cry from a threat.”

    And that is something we say over and over again it’s the radicals that is who we are after. The problem is that the ones who are a threat are among you.

    It doesn’t help though when CAIR does something to harm us and the Muslims who are supposed to be on our side don’t stand up against them.

  307. Aminah

    Of course, Greg, you are right about being able to continue with your religious service even with Fed agents present! Our focus when we attend mosque is supposed to be solely on Allah, not on who’s there, what they’re wearing, or even whether or not they’re a true Believer. And I am relating the experience of a friend of mine; to my knowledge, I have never been in this situation in my masjid. But I can imagine that I would feel sad, too, if I KNEW that some of the people with whom I was worshipping were simply there to spy on us, not to praise God with sincere intentions. I mean, I’m okay if a non-Muslim comes to the mosque to express a genuine interest in wanting to know more about Islam, regardless of whether or not they were considering converting.

    But to be “watched” is a creepy feeling, especially if you’re not doing anything wrong! Have you ever experienced that? I have, and not because I am a Muslim! (It happened to me for several weeks a few years ago, well before I became a Muslima and started wearing hijab.) It’s a horrible feeling.

    Do you think (realistically) that our country will ever be out of an “extreme situation” again? And please don’t say, “Yes, if we just pack up the Muslims and send them back to the desert!” :0)
    I am curious to know your opinion.

    May Allah grant us strength in mind and body to work together as one human race to develop an understanding of and appreciation for each other.

    And may we find a sense of humor in doing so!

  308. Greg T.

    We are just asking for a little fairness here. We will support your rights as much as possible. But you need to report any suspicious activity to Federal Authorities and you need to fight against any organization like CAIR who would harm America and give Muslims in America a bad name.

  309. Greg T.

    Aminah asked,

    But to be “watched” is a creepy feeling, especially if you’re not doing anything wrong! Have you ever experienced that?

    My response,

    Yes, I was a teenager once. And when shopping the employees keep a very close eye on teenagers because while not all teenagers are shoplifters a great proportion of shoplifters are teenagers.

    Aminah asked,

    Do you think (realistically) that our country will ever be out of an “extreme situation” again”

    I sure hope so, but really this is all the fault of the Left in America and they don’t seem to be losing power, so I can’t say. I pray every night that the evil Left will lose their strength in America.

    It is my greatest wish that we can be “normal” again. I hope we can return to a time in America where we can say that they (whoever they might be at the time) would not dare to attack here. Not on American soil.

  310. Greg T.

    Aminah asked,

    Do you think (realistically) that our country will ever be out of an “extreme situation” again”

    My response.

    I sure hope so, but really this is all the fault of the Left in America and they don’t seem to be losing power, so I can’t say. I pray every night that the evil Left will lose their strength in America.

    It is my greatest wish that we can be “normal” again. I hope we can return to a time in America where we can say that they (whoever they might be at the time) would not dare to attack here. Not on American soil.

  311. Aminah

    Yes, that’s part of the problem with civil rights organizations–they tend to step on toes, don’t they?

    CAIR does a lot of good, so I don’t think you’re going to find an outcry of injustice in the Muslim mainstream. But like any movie star, politician, athlete, religious or civil rights organization, bad decisions are going to be made and publicized. Everybody in the public eye is under careful scrutiny and is held to a standard based on our own individual (and societal) values.

    Now, I’m NOT saying that the imams DIDN’T have their civil rights violated; there are several differing accounts out there in cyberspace, and the facts get written incorrectly…some accounts say they were making trouble, others say they were praying quietly and left the plane without trouble…and where there’s injustice, someone has to right the wrongs. I just don’t know what actually happened.

    But we are a lawsuit-happy nation, aren’t we?

    And, as you pointed out in one of your earlier links, there are Muslim organizations out there that are more right-wing that do speak out against CAIR.

    Tell me, are you familiar with MPAC (Muslim Public Affairs Council)? I have only this week visited their website for the first time.

    May God’s blessings be upon you! I am tired and will probably not post any more tonight.

    Aminah

  312. Greg wrote: “…you need to fight against any organization like CAIR who would harm America and give Muslims in America a bad name.”

    Sorry, Greg, no can do. While I’m not a member of CAIR, I do support them and their very good works. (And here’s hoping that the Imams’ lawsuit succeeds, insha’allah.)

  313. Greg T.

    You JDsg support terrorism then.

  314. Greg T.

    Aminah I will have to look into MPAC before giving you my opinion of the organization. I will get back to you on that.

    As for CAIR, opposition is growing against that organization. If Muslims don’t stand up against the organization then don’t be surprised if we start seeing all American Muslims as the threat.

  315. Greg: No, I don’t support terrorism, nor does CAIR support terrorism. To suggest that they (or I) do is to take a very long leap of illogic. As I said earlier, I think the problem people like you have with CAIR is that they’re very visible and they’re very successful at their work. Quite honestly, I don’t care if you think that American Muslims will be seen as a threat because they support CAIR. Everything you’ve written so far suggests that you already see American Muslims as a threat, so why should we worry about what you think? Your mind is closed. The vast majority of Americans, however, have an open mind, so we will work with them.

  316. Greg T.

    CAIR does support terrorism.

    CAIR actually does legal terrorism. That is terrorizing through our legal system.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54172

  317. Ann

    Thanks Greg,

    JDsg did totally turn around the point I was making about rationing.

    Also I watched the videos you posted. They are very good.

    It is too bad that some Muslims like JDsg has taken the side of the terrorists. I know that most American Muslims don’t think that way, but there are those who do and we need to do something about them.

    I was talking to a friend last night and he said that the radical Muslims are our last hope. I was surprised, and asked what does he mean by that. He explained that America has been decaying from within for the last several decades, but perhaps with a threat like these terrorists, it will make Americans reject the ways of the Left and find our true selves again. It is a great price to pay for sure, but perhaps the only chance we have left.

    Look, we will defeat radical Islam, just like we defeated communism, just like we defeated the Nazis. The only question is how many of our people will have to die and how much destruction on our homeland we will have to see before we wake up.

    American Muslims can either join us and fight the enemy, especially internal enemies like CAIR, or they can be part of the losing side. It is really up to them.

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/8/24/170414.shtml

  318. Ann

    Aaminah,

    I don’t know what Greg will find out about MPAC but from what I can tell from the web site they seem ok.

    That is not to say that I support everything they are doing . I would think carefully if I were you to consider carefully if a so-called “civil rights” organizination is the best thing for your community as like you say they tend to “step on toes”. They tend see everything from the narrow perspective of their interest group and become hyper-senstive. Today racism is practically non-existant. Religious freedom is strong. Sure sometimes you might hear some negative thing said, but is it right to immediately jump upon every misguided word some person might say?

    But that said, MPAC unlike CAIR seems willing to work with Federal Authories instead of trying to block them at every turn. There doesn’t seem to be the support of terrorists and hostle foreign leaders that you see with CAIR. If you feel you must support a so called civil rights organization, MPAC would be the one to support as they seem to honestly work with us instead of against us.

    What do you think Greg?

  319. Ann

    One thing I would like to see from organizations like MPAC and from Muslims in general is for them to speak out about the attacks on Jesus that are happening with increasing frequency.

    After all, as was previously stated, he is considered a holy man in your religion, so an attack upon Him isn’t only an attack upon Christianity, but an attack upon Islam as well.

    And I believe that it will go a long way to build good will between Stong moral Christians and Muslims. After all we should be on the same side on most of the issues in the Culture War. Our common enemy should be the Left and the destruction they have caused within our society. After American Muslims suffer from the decay in morals we have seen the Left promote just like Christians do.

  320. Ann

    I meant to type “after all American Muslims suffer from the decay in morals we have seen the Left promote just like Christians do.

    Surely Muslims don’t want to live in a society that approves of so called “Gay Marriage”. Surely Muslims don’t want television with all the sexual jokes in it that we see these days.

    Even “Little Mosque” can’t resist throwing in sexual jokes into their show. Especially with comments by Sarah, but we have seen other characters say things as well where the humor in what they said is that the words had an unintended sexual meaning. I would have to go back and watch the show to see the number of times the show does it and quite honestly I don’t want to take the effort to do so right now, but it would be interesting if one would do it as I believe a list of sexually laden comments on this show would be quite long indeed. Well at least longer than one would expect in a show like this.

  321. Greg, if you’re relying upon “sources” like worldnetdaily, it’s no wonder your mind is closed. As a matter of fact, CAIR last week published an open letter to the U.S. Congress, which stated:

    “For the record, CAIR unequivocally condemns terror attacks targeting people of all faiths and in all areas of the world.”

  322. Ann

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, but how come then are so many of their leaders have been associated with terrorism?

    How come they are publicly terrorizing the American public with all their lawsuits?

  323. binmugahid

    Okay, this is one is for Anne:

    Thanks for explaining the “Turn the other cheek” for me. I still wouldn’t let anybody slap me in the face and get away with it, and if you say turn the other cheek means…. slap my silly self again as the first time didn’t quite do it. I beg to differ. Slap this cheek and yours is fair game “Not you of course, the cheek slapper”.

    Now to your argument about left and right cheek and how hard it is to accomplish the slapping once you turn the other cheek, Sounds like lawyer speak to me. Turn the other cheek is not even a form of passive resistance, it is just plain old letting the bully get what he wants. I quote this “Such a response would create enormous difficulties for the striker”.

    All I can say to this one is Puhleeezzzzzz.

    Now to your other famous quote “And there is the position that says we are going to deport you or put you in camps”. Let me tell you this right now, Snap out of it, America cannot do this without loosing itself in the process, not to mention loose a lot of business in the process. If I were a betting man, and I aint, I would bet everything I have against everything you have that this will never ever happen, you know why?
    Muslims do not exist only in America, they exist outside America in great numbers too, if America were to try this, it would loose any form of support it has in the arab and muslim world, American business would suffer, recession would rear it’s ugly head again and a lot of americans would loose a lot of jobs over their inability to continue their business ventures in any part of the world that has muslims in it. Did I mention that there are lots of other competitors out there that would love to take over any businesses US foreign policy fumbles?

    Not only that, such a move would also empower the extremists, the moderates, the terrorists, the fundamentalists (My self being in that last group) and would give them leverage and more power in overthrowing the governments that the USA has supported for such a long time, just because it’s good business to deal with dictators.

    Feel free to welcome any muslims you see fit into the western world or America for that matter, after all, it’s your country and until such time that the immigrants become a part of your country and have EQUAL RIGHTS as you, until such time, that welcome party or lynching mob is pretty much your prerogative.

    Lets just get one thing clear here, not every Muslim out there wants to come over to the USA and live there, yes, there are lots of Muslims that dream of coming over there to the big ol USA , more power to them, but the majority are too busy living their lives. You have to understand, America or any developed country for that matter is not a destination, it just a thing that people do, a decision they make to go about their lives. Some do it for a different type of education, a different lifestyle, but believe me, it’s not the goal in itself, it’s just a place where they can fulfill their plans.

    I for one, have never dreamed of coming to America, nor do I think about it, like many right wingers in the US would have you believe. We just don’t care. I don’t care.

    And since when did Americans become victims of legal terrorists that file lawsuits, Americans are known around the world as the most litigious bunch God ever created on this earth. A little lawsuit here and there never hurt anybody.

    Finally Anne, Special interest groups exist only to advance the causes of the special interest groups. I never heard of a group of Black jews forming a special interest group that protects the interests of Purple colored Atheists. That would not make a lot of sense now, would it?

    I don’t know much about CAIR, frankly speaking I don’t CAIR. They have their audience, and they seek to serve the interest of their constituents, don’t expect them to do anything other than that.

    And you say so many of their leaders are associated with terrorism? Do you have any evidence or is this another guilty by association. Go read the constitution of the United States Anne, it’s an elequent very well written document by a group of very intelligent individuals, I’m not even american and I have read it. Quite a good read too.

    The show is excellent, it reflects the lives of a group of people that share a common religion, living in a particular country where things are not aligned with their way of life and it shows how they deal with it.

    that’s all folks.

  324. Ann

    Turn the other cheek is a way to resist. The first time the cheek was slapped as one would slap a child or a slave. By turning the other cheek you are saying that if you want to assault me again, you are going to have to do it as an equal. I will not let you treat me as your inferior.

    As to special interest groups existing only to advance the cause of its special interest group, the point was that since Jesus is a respected figure in Islam, an attack upon Jesus is an attack upon Islam and therefore it is in the interests of Muslims to protest any attack upon Jesus. Not for the Christians’ sake but for the sake of Islam.

  325. Ann

    Jesus when he was talking about “Turn the other cheek” was talking to the powerless. What he was saying was just don’t take being slapped. Show some sign of resistance. By indicating that you should hit me as if I was an equal, that would be challenging the whole social system.

    So the statement is the exact opposite to what lots of people make it out to being.

    Remember, Christians have the New Testament, but we just didn’t throw out the Old Testament. Jesus talked about how people should live their daily lives. but to find out about other stuff such as how leaders should lead their countries Christians refer to the Old Testament.

  326. Greg

    Regarding CAIR,

    Senior CAIR employee Randall Todd Royer, a/k/a “Ismail” Royer, pled guilty and was sentenced to twenty years in prison for participating in a etwork of militant jihadists centered in Northern Virginia. He admitted to aiding and abetting three persons
    who sought training in a terrorist camp in Pakistan for the purpose of waging jihad against American troops in Afghanistan. Royer’s illegal actions occurred while he was employed with CAIR

    CAIR’s Director of Community Relations, Bassem Khafagi , was arrested by the United States due to his ties with a terror-financing front group. Khafagi pled guilty to charges of visa and bank fraud, and agreed to be deported to Egypt.
    Khafagi’s illegal actions occurred while he was employed by CAIR.

    On December 18, 2002, Ghassan Elashi, founding board member of CAIR-Texas, a founder of the Holy Land Foundation, and a brother-in-law of Musa Abu Marzook , was arrested by the United States and charged with, among other things,
    making false statements on export declarations, dealing in the property of a designated terrorist organization, conspiracy and money laundering. Ghassan Elashi committed his crimes while working at CAIR, and was found Guilty.

    CAIR Board Member Imam Siraj Wahaj, an un-indicted co-conspirator in the first World Trade Center bombing, has called for replacing the American government with an Islamic caliphate, and warned that America will crumble
    unless it accepts Islam.

    Rabih Haddad served as a CAIR Fundraiser. Haddad was co-founder of the Global Relief Foundation (“GRF”). GRF was designated by the US Treasury Department for financing the Al Qaida and other terrorist organizations and its assets were frozen by the US Government on December 14, 2001.

    “Let there be no doubt that the Council on American-Islamic Relations is a terrorist supporting front organization that is partially funded by terrorists, and that CAIR wishes nothing more than the implementation of Sharia law in America.”

  327. Greg

    Is that a big enough list for you?

    CAIR is the enemy within America. If you support CAIR you support terrorism!

  328. Greg

    binmugahid

    You said that we will never lock up or deport all the Muslims.

    Well… you would be right about that.

    UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

    But if something extreme happens, you think we would really care about losing business? We would already be in recession as a result of the attack.

    No, we would not let losing business stand in our way. We have one of the most heavily armed citizenry in the world. And it won’t only be Bubba in the woods that you would have to w0rry about. You are going to have some pissed off Ganstas for whom Terrorism is also bad for business.

    Actually all of America will unite. In fact it might in a sad, sick way be our last hope!

  329. Greg

    America is indeed one of the most decadent places in the world.

    The criminal element runs rampant. Americans spend billions of dollars a year on illegal drugs. Beyond that you have racketeering, protection money, all kinds of smuggling.

    And a terrorist attack would disrupt all that business.

    Hell, if there was another terrorist attack on American soil, I wouldn’t be worrying about the FBI or the Military.

    I would worry about the real life Tony Sopranos. The Crips and Bloods gangs, cause they don’t like anyone messing around in THEIR HOOD.

    And so if something happens, they will respond. You mess with their business and they will kill your family, your Mosque, your Imans.

    Yeah, if you disrupt their business, the FBI will be the least of your concerns.

    Hell, Organized Crime killed one of our Presidents and got away with it. Do you think they wouldn’t do the same to some Muslims messing around in their turf?

  330. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but how come then are so many of their leaders have been associated with terrorism?

    Yes, some people involved with CAIR have been arrested and convicted on terrorism charges, but that does not mean that the organization supports terrorism. CAIR’s statements against terrorism show unequivocally the organization’s position on the subject. The fact that it works closely with numerous civil rights and religious organizations (e.g., the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International, NAACP, Hispanic Unity, Organization of Chinese Americans, Japanese American Citizens League, Sikh Mediawatch and Resource Task Force, National Council of Churches) indicates that many people don’t believe CAIR supports terrorism. Or do you think all these other groups support terrorism as well?

    How come they are publicly terrorizing the American public with all their lawsuits?

    Puh-lease. Stop making me laugh. If Americans would stop terrorizing Muslims who are trying to live peaceful lives, the lawsuits would disappear. (I suppose you think that people who file lawsuits must be terrorists too.) Non-Muslims need to grow up and leave Muslims alone so that everyone can live decent lives.

  331. I should stop wasting my time in this discussion about CAIR but, on a parting note, I wanted to tell Greg and Ann about two recent cases:

    In September 2006, an Orthodox Jewish man was removed from an Air Canada flight from Montreal to New York for merely praying in his seat. According to media reports, flight attendants actually recognized that he wasn’t a Muslim and that they were sorry for the situation but they had to ask him to leave. Rabbis in Montreal criticized the move as insensitive, saying that the flight attendants should have explained to the other passengers that the man was simply praying and doing no harm.

    London-based interior-design guru Seth Stein was kicked off an American Airlines flight simply because of his tan. According to British newspapers, Mr. Stein never “could have imagined being mistaken for an Islamist terrorist and physically pinned to his seat while aboard an American Airlines flight ­ especially as he has Jewish origins.” He has since been told by airline staff he was targeted because he was using an iPod, had used the toilet when he got on the plane and that his tan made him appear “Arab.” According to media reports, the saddest part of Mr. Stein’s harrowing ordeal was that as he was being head-locked and pinned to the ground; instead of outrage, applause came from fellow passengers.

    Now, ask yourselves, should these two men not sue the airlines for the injustices they received at the hands of the airlines? What distinguishes the abuse they received (especially Mr. Stein) from the treatment of the Imams? (Certainly the abuse Mr. Stein received was far worse than what the imams went through.) If these were your family members, would you not want some justice?

    Or are you two hypocrites?

  332. Greg

    I am an American, and really don’t care about the Jews one way or the other. But for the first one, no since he was behaving suspiciously.

    Two is a much harder case. I would first have to know what year it was that this happened. If this happened last year then perhaps he has a case. Also I would have to know how he responded if he was asked to return to his seat.

    With the Imans they were deliberately acting suspicious just in order to develop a lawsuit. There has also been cases where Muslims were performing “dry runs” where they were testing how far they could push their behavior until they would receive some kind of response.

    I want the airlines to look very hard at the behavior of all of the people on planes not only “Arab looking” people because no doubt the terrorists will attempt to use Bosnian Muslims and Blacks. But also “Arab Looking”people shouldn’t get a pass because people are afraid of lawsuits.

    I also think that the pilots should have a camera they can turn on in the bathroom and an ability to lock the bathroom door remotely. It may seem an invasion of privacy, but the pilots are professionals and surely aren’t too happy about a a bathroom-cam either. But a bathroom-cam with the ability to lock a person in would be a good security device. Perhaps the bathroom-cam could have some kind of mode where just an outline image of the person is shown and then if there seems to be something that is up the pilot can turn on the mode where the camera would look clear and the pilot could get a clear look at what is going on.

  333. Greg

    “Or do you think all these other groups support terrorism as well?”

    Well, I don’t know if that is the intent of all of them, but that is absolutely the effect they are having upon our society. They are “the enemy within” who are actually a greater threat to our society than the terrorists themselves.

  334. Greg

    What did the Six Imans do?

    An airline gate agent told the Minneapolis Police Department that six Muslim men began praying very loudly and repeatedly shouting “Allah” as passengers began boarding Flight 300 bound for Phoenix Nov. 20. The six imams refused to sit on their assigned seats, moving around the cabin and arranging themselves in a pattern reminiscent of the Sept. 11, 2001 hijackings. Three asked flight attendants for heavy seat belt extenders, but then didn’t use them to buckle up. Witnesses overheard them talking about al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.

    Look long, long before 9-11 I knew that one doesn’t make jokes about having a bomb when you are boarding or on an airflight. And that was BEFORE 3000 lost their lives on 9-11.

    http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=249091839930090

    Actually perhaps this lawsuit will be a good thing. I believe a countersuit might be possible and it might be possible to bankrupt CAIR over this. In any case, whereas before CAIR may have appeared legitimate now, most Americans know that CAIR isn’t. They will have fewer and fewer opportunities to talk to the press as the press will feel compelled to turn elsewhere for the American Muslim view.

  335. Ann

    You know what I think the most serious damage that CAIR does is? It is that they get us fighting Among ourselves instead of recognizing and uniting against the true enemy – THE LEFT.

    The Right in America and the Muslims don’t want the filth that the Left is promoting. We don’t want the homosexual marriages, the divorces, the tv sexual jokes.

    We simply don’t want to go to the sewer the Left is taking us to. So what is important is to reject organizations like CAIR and to unite together and fight the internal enemies like the so called Democratic Party (really should call themselves the socialist anti-American party) and the ACLU who legalizes and promotes degeneracy at every turn

  336. Ann

    In the end, I don’t really blame Muslims for 9-11 because Muslims or no Muslims 9-11 would have never happened if it wasn’t for the Cultural Left.

    I am not the only one who believes this. A guy wrote a whole book about it.

    This is what he said.

    http://www.dineshdsouza.com/books/enemy-intro.html

    In faulting the cultural left, I am not making the absurd accusation that this group blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I am saying that the cultural left and its allies in Congress, the media, Hollywood, the nonprofit sector and the universities are the primary cause of the volcano of anger toward America that is erupting from the Islamic world. The Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks were the product of this visceral rage—some of it based on legitimate concerns, some of it based on wrongful prejudice—but all of it fueled and encouraged by the cultural left. Thus without the cultural left, 9/11 would not have happened.

    I haven’t got the book yet, so I don’t know if the author made the following points too but the Left also made it easier for any external force to attack us by weakening our military and by making law enforcement fear groups like CAIR more than they feared a possible attack. Also their lax immigration policy make it all too easy for these people to get into the country in the first place and to stay even though their Visas had expired.

    So, if it wasn’t the radical Islamofascists who took advantage of the weakness the Left caused it would have been some other group. I see successful terrorism on our homeland as a symptom, not the cause of our problems. That is why I compare to what the LEFT does to America society to what the AIDS virus does to a human body. The AIDS itself doesn’t kill the body. It weakens the body’s defense so that an external germ that otherwise would have had no ability to be deadly to the body, becomes deadly.

    That is what the Left has done to our society. It it wasn’t the radical Muslims it would have been another radical group to take advantage of our weakness. So instead of focusing on the symptoms (the growing strength of the ability of radical Islam to harm us) we need to focus on the cause which is the Left and it’s long and all too successful Culture War.

  337. Ann

    I have to agree with Greg regarding do those Jews have a case to sue. First one absolutely not and second one maybe but I would have to know much more about his behavior. See I don’t look at the fact that the person was a Jew or not in determining my answer, ok!

    This isn’t about Muslims. It is about anyone who would pose a threat to America. I just don’t want Muslims to get a special pass. They should get at least as hard of a looking at by Airport security as a little old white lady would, and yeah, perhaps a little more of a looking at because right now there is a special concern in this area.

    But I certainly don’t want the security to let Jews or whites or whoever “off the hook” for the moment they do those who would want to harm us (Islamofacists, Enviro-terrorists, neo-commie groups, Shirley Sheehan, etc) would use those types of people in their attacks.

  338. Shazia

    Assalamo Alaikum Binmugahid

    I never told you to turn the other cheek. Whatever action is taken to defend Islam must be proprotionate to the offence against it. Your reaction to Former Muslim was disproportionate.
    I also merely said you must remain within the law.

  339. Alice

    We must recognize that the real enemy isn’t the Muslims.

    It’s the Left.

    We need to ban together to defeat them in their cultural war against decency.

  340. Azeena

    I don’t really want to start anything, I’m very sorry if I sounded like it- but our religion is already very misunderstood. You can read all the translated Quran’s you want, but I doubt many people actually learn Arabic and the roots of those poetic words, a simple pronounciation switch can change the meaning all together.

    “, (And last) beat them (lightly)” quoted in many Qurans these days as stated. But did you know that the word beat is not actually the right translation. That word came from the root word ‘daraba ‘that means ‘to leave’. Yes to leave. Which makes better sense. Since, step 1 is to discuss. step 2 is to remove yourself from the bed and seperate. So why would step 3 mean for the man to come back and ‘beat’ the wife. In fact that would contradict the other lines of the Quran where it states to not treat your woman with harshness. These are the things I am talking about. Those misunderstood words have been passed down, people have (even arabic people) have memorized it and continued this chain. No authority was given to any man to hit any woman- it simply does not make sense, and it contradicts the quran so deeply. These are the exact same misunderstandings places like ‘Faith Freedom’ use as anti-islamic jargon.
    I’m just begging muslim men and woman (young or old) to get out there, raise your voice. We are seeing way too much of abuse in the Muslim world to sit by. And don’t just do it for Muslims, do it for everyone.
    This show is the best thing that has ever happened to the Muslim community here and abroad, and yet we got fatwa’s being issued left right and center. Why? Because fundamentalists don’t want us to see that modern islam can be achieved. That women do have rights, that they can speak up. That men and women really are equal.
    Write to CBC, tell them what this show means to us, to you individually. They need to know that a big group of people may hate this show, but an even bigger group love it. 🙂

  341. This may interest some: Amish women keep their heads covered in public. Modest dress is encouraged. Men and women are separated during prayer. Sound familiar?

    @John, it used to be that ALL Christian women observed modesty, including covering their hair, at least with married women.
    Modesty for Christian women became less as a result of a combination of factors, 1, WWI, when fabric was rationed, and 2. the fashion industry itself pushed shorter hemlines in the West. Something close to 100 years of no modesty for most Christian women has done a lot to destroy this tradition.

    Now back to the episode, I have only looked at the first two parts tonight. I found too that many people were out of character. I was a bit upset with Rayan’s treatment of the firefighter. She should have been clear with him, say in the restaraunt, she had endless chances to diplomatically and clearly tell him she couldn’t go out with him.

  342. Alice

    Head covering is entirely different from a burka where ones face is covered.

  343. Aalia Canadian

    Hey Katja thnx for pointing that out…I tell that to my non-Muslim friends and they also agree that its a shame how the girls dress these days…me and my friends are all in our teens but we adhere to modest dressing according to Islamic or Christian dress-code. Alice, no offense but a “burka” is only worn in Afghanistan. Most women who cover their faces wear a NIQAB which covers all but the eyes. This is out of religious piety and/or because the women is beautiful and doesnt like to attract unwanted attention from men. Either way, as Muslims, we must have respect for our Sisters who choose to wear the face-veil. Also, 19 out of 20 women I know that wear the face-veil are CAUCASIAN and converts to Islam. Only one is from the Middle East. Well sorry back to the show, I wonder when it will start again? Is it on a break or never coming back? Anyways i’m out.

  344. Alright, finally had the chance to see the last episode, hasn’t Rayan’s hemline gone up? Dark stockings don’t make up for a shorter skirt!

  345. Sorry for the double post, I think a lot of Caucasian converts get attracted by the veil, the annonymity and not having to be noticed, to be private. Just my theory anyway.
    Personally I think a scarf and being careful of skirt length, how transparent cloth is, and necklines is enough! 🙂
    I should have thought of this one right away, Rayan is a Health Care Worker, she can’t date the fireman, he is a patient! 🙂 She couldn’t date him even if he were Muslim! But wait, this is T.V.! 🙂
    I have to think more about this episode. I am getting to like Babur more too, he’s cute and funny and you can tell he loves his daughter and I like his daughter. Would he be upset to have a Christian wife that respected Islam? J\K! 🙂

  346. John

    Would Babur be upset to have a Christian wife that respected Islam?

    Of course he would be.

    He would never do such a thing.

  347. John

    Would Babur be upset if his daughter married a man who was a Christian but respected Islam?

    Absolutely.

    Would he disown her?

    Probably not on the show but in real life, I would say the chances are that he would.

    Most of us in the west compromise too easily. I have had an experience where I compromised my values for family harmony, family relationships.

    One of my relatives was dying. Her son was having a commitment ceremony with another guy (I at least commend them for not pushing the ceremony as being a wedding ceremony). Well, even though I strongly oppose homosexuality, I went to the ceremony because I wanted to see my relative again and I knew how special the day was to her.

    But would Barbur sacrifice his relationship with his daughter if she did something so bad as to marry a man who wasn’t a Muslim. Again, since this show is made mostly by people of a western mindset, I am sure he would come to accept – not like – but accept the fact that she married a non-muslim and would continue to keep her in his life but in reality, he would probably tell her that he never wanted to see her again, and would probably keep to that and never see her again.

    Perhaps that makes him a stronger man than me. Perhaps we do compromise our principles in the West. And that is those of us who have principles to begin with.

  348. John

    If the show wanted to be very challenging they would make Barbur’s daughter a homosexual as it seems that one of the goals of the show is to make Muslims more accepting of homosexuality (that “friend of dorothy” swimming instructor and that whole abomination episode).

    Hopefully they know that would totally turn Muslims off the show and would not push that agenda too far.

  349. @John, you should not be answering questions which I addressed mainly to the Muslim readers! It’s kind of presumptuos, another thing, at least read what I said before replying, I said NOTHING whatever about Babur’s daughter marrying a Christian man! I think that it’s a given she would not do that, because SHE knows it would break her father’s heart, she may rebel, she may not be a perfectly obedient child, but you can tell she loves her dad!
    I asked about Babur as sort of a light-hearted remark. He’s very cute, he’s more intelligent than he than he seems at first glance.
    He’s not an extremist, he’s as others pointed out, a traditionalist. I think extremists are bad for any society, but we could stand with a few educated traditionalists in society in the West. The Western way is to throw out traditions for economic reasons, for example what happened with women’s fashions, and indeed what happens still with Western fashions for women. An educated traditionalist KNOWS when the change happened and has the guts to resist that change, even if he or she must do it alone for a long time.
    I’d like to see Christians do a better job of observing Christian tradition and law before they have anything to say about Muslims.
    I think that would go a long way to making the Christians a really good community, and it would help us get along with Muslims because the rules for both are really NOT that different.

    I suspect many converts to Islam from the West convert to Islam for some very Christian reasons!
    They see the Christian community not really trying, and want to be part of some group that tries even in adversity.

    This is the same reason I hear from Protestants or Catholics who become Orthodox Christians, who are in some regards stricter on issues of public decorum, i.e. modesty in dress, observance of fasting during Lent, they are looking for a more cohesive community where their values are not regarded as ‘odd’ or ‘out of place’, where fashion, corporate mandates, which we are not legally allowed to resist unless we are Muslim or Jewish ( Job dress codes, can we all say ‘John Malloy’ and ‘Dress for Success’?) peer pressure doesn’t replace what is right.

    I want to reply also to the people (there are several) who discuss putting the Muslims into ‘camps’. This was not in the end legal to do to the Japanese, and the Japanese ended up suing for and getting reparations.

    The Soviet Union tried putting among other Muslim communities and ethnic groups, the Chechen Muslims and the Meshket Turks in Siberia, in the gulags and that didn’t change them, religiously or culturally. All it did was contribute to the bad name the Soviet Union had, and to the fall ultimately of the Soviet system.

    Now the Meshket Turks are going to mostly end up admitted to the U.S. for humanitarian reasons, because the Cossacks beat on them all the time and no one there will give them jobs.

    Putin is in bad trouble, and the U.S. is helping Russia a lot by taking in this minority group wholesale, 12,0000 out of 15,000.

  350. ooops, oh for an edit button, my respectful greetings to everyone and I too am looking forward to the next season of LMOTP! 🙂

  351. Fatim

    I’m loving the show because it’s kooky and funny, but aren’t y’all taking it a little too seriously? It is, afterall, just a TV show ….

    F x

  352. Amrita

    Salaam!

    Since all of you are wishing others this way, I thought I would too. Sorry for the delayed entrance to this discussion forum. I only just discovered the show on youtube and I love it. At the outset, let me clarify that I am not muslim and I am a pure-bred Indian living in France. That said, I do appreciate the show for the way all its characters have flaws in them. It only makes them more human. A couple of responses to the comments I have read on this forum.

    1) Yasir’s reaction: I understand totally. My dad would react the same way. Never mind that he is neither a muslim, nor religious, nor even overly protective. I think it’s a dad thing. It is human.

    2) Rayanne: Well, she decided to invite the guy for a dinner date because she was fed up of people talking about a non-existent relationship. So, she thought, “heck! if everyone MUST talk, then let me at least go on a real date!”.

    3) Islam vs. the rest: I don’t think this episode is relevant exclusively to muslims. It is more cultural than religious. I never dated until I was 23. Even then, I sneaked around. Finally, when mum did discover I was dating, she threw a fit. Mind you, I was serious about him and wanted to get married to him. Two years down the line, she still pretends he doesn’t exist. All because, dating is NOT acceptable. It is not just Islam. It is also conservative culture, be it Asian, African or Muslim.

    4) Babur: He is human too. As I said, it is cultural. He is a conservative Pakistani by birth and upbringing. He cannot change too much. His daughter, on the other hand, grew up with a different world view. He is trying his best to reconcile. Give him time and he will evolve into a more understanding individual. I said more understanding, not less religious or more liberal. That will not happen. My guess is, he will adopt a “live and let live” philosophy.

    That’s my take.

    Cheers!

  353. Ansa Nargis

    Do any of you guys know why it has stopped coming on? or is it just that no one posts it on youtube anymore? Please let me know . thnks 🙂

  354. They are currently making the second season. Once we get word, it’ll be posted here !

  355. London Fan

    Yeah!! LMOTP has featured on the UK blogosphere – a BBC radio journalist did a profile on the show and hopefully it’ll be bought by UK TV stations – it’s already been bought in France. To hear the interviews with cast/creator, follow this link to the Guardian’s Islamophonic weekly broadcast:
    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/podcasts/2007/05/islamophonic_for_wednesday_23.html

    Some of you may be surprised to hear the actor who plays Baber speak…well I was!!

    I really enjoyed the show and think it’s doing a great service to intercultural relations and makes me laugh and feel good.

    Thanks so much to the moderators/organizers of this interesting blog (it’s a great community you’re all creating here) and also a big thank you to the people responsible for the U Tube posts (Asifnana and Mydien). I’m so happy I was able to watch this bunkered way over here in London.

    Also, check out the creator’s documentary called “Me & the Mosque” which looks more seriously but also with a lot of humour, at the topic aired in episode 2 (the separation barrier at the mosque). I saw it on U Tube.

    Great show. Really looking forward to the next series. THANK YOU

  356. I found something I think my fellow ‘LMOTP’ fans may enjoy, it’s on YouTube, it’s COMEDY routines about looking for a wife online. Beware, the comments are full of remarks by trolls. I thought the guy who did the videos was pretty funny though.

    This is the URL:

  357. Hamri Al-Assad

    Salam

    You wrote

    But I certainly don’t want the security to let Jews or whites or whoever “off the hook” for the moment they do those who would want to harm us (Islamofacists, Enviro-terrorists, neo-commie groups, Shirley Sheehan, etc) would use those types of people in their attacks.

    Its Cindy Sheehan, and she doesnt want to harm us, her son was murdered in an unjust war. Would you be all happy go lucky if the same happened to you

    Thats what I though

  358. Steve

    The war is just. I would be honored to have a son who gave his life for America (though of course I would rather have him come back home safely)

    Cindy Sheehan’s family totally disagrees with what she is doing (I guess I can say ‘was’ now because I guess she has quit).

    —–
    Aug 11 2005 12:56:21 ET

    The family of American soldier Casey Sheehan, who was killed in Iraq on April 4, 2004, has broken its silence and spoken out against his mother Cindy Sheehan’s anti-war vigil against George Bush held outside the president’s Crawford, Texas ranch.

    The following email was received by the DRUDGE REPORT from Casey’s aunt and godmother:

    Our family has been so distressed by the recent activities of Cindy we are breaking our silence and we have collectively written a statement for release. Feel free to distribute it as you wish.

    Thanks, Cherie

    In response to questions regarding the Cindy Sheehan/Crawford Texas issue: Sheehan Family Statement:

    The Sheehan Family lost our beloved Casey in the Iraq War and we have been silently, respectfully grieving. We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the the expense of her son’s good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan Family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect.

    Sincerely,

    Casey Sheehan’s grandparents, aunts, uncles and numerous cousins.
    —-

    Her husband has also divorced her.

    And I heard that a major factor in Casey’s decision to join the military was to get away from his mom.

  359. Alex

    Did you know that part of emergency aid sometimes include taking off the victim’s shirt?

    When one does CPR I believe they are instructed to do so.

    Also, for those who know CPR the person administering first aid blows air into the victim’s lungs. To do so, he must touch the lips of the victim.

    So I guess no CPR for Muslim women.

  360. Cordelia

    John,

    You say you are Amish. I have not heard of the Amish using the internet before; I thought that kind of technology wasn’t permitted. This is off the topic of little mosque, but I’d like to know. Thank you.

  361. Priyana/Fabiha

    Hi and Assalam Waleikum. I’m a Muslim in the U.S.

    About that dating argument, I’m not a scholar or anything, but based on what I’ve learned, here’s what I think.

    I’ve heard some people say that the Quran tells them that dating is forbidden, but that’s a traditional thing. I’m not very good at geography, but I’m pretty sure that Islam first spread around Mecca and Madinah, as it was called in that time. Many people living around that region today have arranged marriages. This is traditional, because that’s how it went in the past. The parents chose a suitable spouse for their kids, or a marriage was arranged at birth. Many of those people became muslims and had arranged marriages, and so do their descendants. Also, yes the Quran says that sex should not be before marriage, which is for a good reason. You don’t want STDs. And if the Quran does have rules against dating and sex before marriage, it depends on whether you want to be a good muslim or not. ;P

    About the wife-beating thing… I’ve never heard anyone talk about that being okay at my Mosque, or anyone in my family say that that would be acceptable. If anything, the only place I might have heard it would be in gossip, and even then my aunts would talk about it in a shocked and disgusted tone. The Islam I know gives equality to both genders, and Islam was known for it in the past. Men and women are supposed to have equal rights so, I’m assuming that if Sura Nisa actually does say that you can lightly beat the wife, the wife can beat the husband if the husband is at fault? And how men are strong, women have their own qualities, too. The STEREOTYPICAL view of a man is strong and powerful, but a STEREOTYPICAL woman would be nice and smart. Men have some good things and women have others and they both have flaws. Not all men are stronger than women, and not all women are kinder and smarter than men. Each gender has things to balance the other out, hence why the saying goes “Opposites attract”.

    That’s what I think at least….

  362. Priyana/Fabiha

    And ya, how come an Omish person is on the computer using the internet????

  363. Priyana/Fabiha

    Sorry. I meant to say Amish.

  364. NonMuslimWesterner

    Priyana/Fabiha –

    I am not a Christian Amish but from what I understand Amish are not against technology or computers, they are against any technology that breaks up a family or community or turns attention away from serving God. Each Christian Amish community decides for themselves what technologies to use and how they will use them, guided by God.

  365. NonMuslimWesterner

    Priyana/Fabiha to clarify:

    Many Christian Amish are very conservative and reject many modern technologies – like cars. Most Americans go into debt and pay interest on cars and spend hundreds of dollars a month of their wages for interest. Christian Amish do not do this, and some go to work, school, and church in a buggy with horses, like they always did.

    Many other Christian Amish, Mennonite, and Anabaptist are also as conservative. Many are more liberal. Some have a family telephone or family computer. Some communities hire a truck to drive them to work or drive themselves.

    Christian Amish Mennonite and Anabaptists are among the most devout of all the Christian sects in the USA. They are an example to all Christians in America and have successfully maintained a pure and devout lifestyle surrounded by the Secular West.

  366. Liberal Sista

    Can we stick to the actual topic here? It’s supposed to be about a Muslim girl dating a non Muslim. I’m quite annoyed because I’m going through the same thing. And frankly I’ve recieved more respect from him not because of his faith but because of who he is. He doesn’t tell me what to wear, he’s from a background where one man, one woman and sensible family planning of 2 kids and not 20 are still seen as normal and he doesn’t mind doing the housework. Oh, and something tells me he’s not some playboy like our more famous Muslim brothers (Imran Khan, Akon, Dodi-RIP) Wake up people! I have yet to find a Muslim brother that matches the criteria I’ve just listed. Almost all the brothers I know would consider polygamy as it’s ‘his right’, would boss me around telling me what I should do because it’s part of my gender (like, hello? You’re not a woman so what the hell would you know about how we’re supposed to be?) and frankly by the time they do learn to be a proper gentleman they are just way to old! Like, I have a right to choose my husband or whatever more than anyone else so I’m not sleeping with some pot bellied wrinkly guy…eeeww. And another thing about most of the Musim men then I’ve met-fine-they’re good cooks. But when it comes to household chores it’s all ‘woman’s work’. Sure you’ll get your average western non Musim MCP saying such things (and I’ll be darned if I’m going to be dying my hair blonde and going all bulimic just to date those jackasses) but when I compare the muslim men I know to the non muslim men, I know who I’d rather be with. Someone who respects me for who I am and doesn’t treat me like a piece of meat or a reproductive cow. Wise up brothers. If you want to prevent naughty and sinful muslimahs like me corrupting your religion…get the brothers back into the kitchen…and clean it up!

    Oh by the way, for those of you who want to make divine judgements on me going to hell…hmm isn;t that seen as equating yourself with God? That i soe form of Shirk is it not? Who has the right to authorise such judgement? If I needed it I would set up a little screen in a room with one imam planted on one side and me on the other and start saying things like, Forgive me Brother for I have sinned…since you are so close to God as you have judged me to go to hell pray that I marry a guy who never checks his beard for nits, forces me to wear the headscarf and stay at home and lower my voice lest he thwacks me with his ‘Halal’ cane, has already pre arranged some marriages for my daughters to someone of the ‘pure’ race and thinks watching TV is a form of liberation for woman because that, my dear brother is the orthodoxes idea of a GOOD MUSLIM!

  367. Saudia

    Hello Liberal Sista,
    Right on! I can see what you are saying. Only thing is….not all Muslim guys are like the way you are describing…but you’re right, many are. On the bright side, slowly but surely, as we blend in more and more with the Western society, I hope that both males and females can emulate the kind of socially acceptable behaviours (e.g. genuine equality, respect and caring) for each other and come out of the dark ages. In the perfect world, if women can find males who treat them right as well as has good Islamic etiquette, then it’s icing on the cake. Learn from it Muslim Brothers! I have a son and I would dread to think that he would treat his wife/financee the way you describe. I also have a husband who is non-Muslim who treats me with better respect rather than some of the so called “Muslim” men I see around. However, my husband is only now converting (reverting) to Islam after 25 years of marriage. MashaAllah!

  368. Lucy

    Here’s a radical idea…why can’t a Muslim convert? I’m sure its happened. I think its time that community allowed this. I have a Christian friend who married a Muslim and she didn’t convert and has no plans of. He doesn’t seem to care either.

    It seems Muslims want t be accepted by other religions but they are not accepting. Anyone of any faith should be allowed to convert without getting disowned by their family.

  369. Dodger

    hey im not a musilim but a christian,
    im a Canadian and I love this show it really makes me laugh. I don’t know why there was a controversy with th whole muslim thing muslims are fine, I have a few muslim friends and they don’t object to the show.
    Mostly I’m not looking for any kind of accuracy or political contorversy in Little Mosque I just watch it because it’s funny, there a good message for multi cultural acceptance and I’m also very intersted to see what happens between Amaar and Rayanne, I hope she chooses him over J.J.

    Why would anyone listen to me though? I’m just a kid.

    Dodger, 12

  370. Ayesha

    Well Dodger, your a kid, and what you have said is completely true. Must ppl make such a big deal out of show? I mean really, its just a comedy with a muslim twist….step away from the humour. Sure it may be a little disappointing but just cus its about muslims doessnt mean you critisize it like there is no tomorrw!

  371. Ayesha

    LMOTP is hilarious in the 2nd season…man i love this show

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