Season 4 – Episode 10 – Bye Bye Yasir

Synopsis: Reverend Thorne goads Amaar into a charity prize fight and Amaar tries to back out, until he realizes the beating will be less painful than the loss of face for the Muslims. Meanwhile, Sarah forgets to give Yasir a message from Thorne about the church reno, prompting Yasir to threaten to quit over Thorne’s unreasonable demands.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Videos courtesy of Mydien

What did you think of this episode? How does it compare to the previous episode? Are there any topics from the episode that you want to discuss?

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282 Comments

Filed under Season 4 - Episode 10

282 responses to “Season 4 – Episode 10 – Bye Bye Yasir

  1. Nahida

    Somehow the idea of anyone camping is amusing in itself.

    Why was the Reverend ashamed of birdwatching? I thought that was nice.

  2. Season 6

    Amaar unexpectedly gets a sign from above.

  3. Steve

    I thought that ultimately they were going to buy the church from the Anglicans (given their falling numbers) and turn it into a Mosque.

    What is too bad is that this is going to limit interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims even further.

  4. Jack

    Christians are really good at putting on “passion plays”. I don’t know if they bring in money to the local economy, but they are very professionally done.

    Other than that, not much to comment on here. Amaar is still the most Religious figure in Mercy. There’s no Christian to match his MISSION FROM GOD (ALLAH).

    Perhaps the main point of the episode was that while Christians “pretend” to be holy with their Mega churches and their pageants and all of that, all it took for Amaar to receive God’s word was a chicken.

  5. Season 6

    Season 6 Episode 7: Everyone finds out Amaar’s inspiration came from a chicken

    • Nahida

      “I’ve emailed, I’ve texted, I’ve phoned–”

      Whoa, Ann is super stalker-y.

      I was half-expecting for Charles to have dropped her like he did with Thorne and never given her closure because he’s such an upstanding guy.

      • David

        I loved Baber – his usual crazy lovable self.

      • Bill

        What is “lovable” about acting like a Terrorist?

        Most offensive thing Baber has ever done.

        He was deliberately provoking the authorities. And that whole driving fertilizer up to a public building thing, for those of us who remember what happened in Oklahoma City (or how they claimed it happened) it brought back some very rare and painful memorizes indeed.

      • Bill

        I know I couldn’t believe they joked about Fertilizer. I know it was quite a while ago now but my memories of that day in Oklahoma City is still just as raw if not more raw than what happened six years later in New York.

        I found Baber as acting completely unforgivable here.

      • Bill

        Sorry I meant to type raw and painful memories.

        I would think that this portrayal of Baber would have offended Muslims too. Because they are often accused of provoking. And in the case of the “Flying Imams” that Jay mentioned indeed, that accusation is valid.

        Canada may have forgotten about 9-11 but this story is prove that 9-11 is still fresh in the minds of Americans.

        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/airline-passengers-tackle-unruly-man-allegedly-screaming-allah-is-great/

        The passengers were at the ready to take this guy DOWN!

        I remember someone saying that 9-11 could only work ONCE because now that people are aware that a plane might not “just be hijacked” (as happened so much particularly in the 1980s) but instead be used as a suicide weapon of mass destruction, people aren’t going to dutifully sit in their seats anymore. They will mass rush the attackers if they must! Just like what happened with that last plane that was brought down by the passengers in Pennsylvania United Airlines Flight 93.

        So, yeah, Canada may have forgotten and think that this is something to joke about, but Americans still take it quite seriously. And yeah the authorities should have been notified that Baber was buying so much fertilizer, but I say that not because Baber is a Muslim as I believe ANYONE should be looked at for buying a lot of fertilizer because Steve is right, although Muslim Terrorism is still a great threat, our most likely next terrorist attack will probably come from some White Occupy Loser. Hell you already saw what they did to the Oakland City Hall. And they have in USA Today publicly encouraged more acts of violence (which I thought was illegal but yeah the FBI separates terrorists into “good terrorist” and “bad terrorists” according to political ideology).

    • Steve

      You can sure tell that this is a CANADIAN show instead of an American one.

      Look if I BOUGHT THAT MUCH Fertilizer I would attract questions from law enforcement.

      Which by the way is okay with me because in the next several years terrorists are probably not going to be of Muslim origin as much as they are going to be white OCCUPY protesters. They have promised that this year is going to become very, very violent.

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/occupy-supporter-threatens-to-storm-wall-st-and-capitals-with-guns-in-usa-today-is-this-him/

      • Bill

        The problem is that yeah YOU would attract questions.

        Yet the Occupy people THREATEN VIOLENCE in a national newspaper and the FBI does NOTHING!

        Meanwhile they have been focusing on this group… Not that some of these people might be of concern, perhaps, though most of them just seem like a bunch of yahoos for whom if they have violated any laws they were technical violations (the sad thing is that there is so many laws that encompass so many areas of our lives we are all lawbreakers in one way or another and could be arrested if the government looks hard enough).

        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fbi-increasing-its-monitoring-of-sovereign-citizens-but-why/

        They DON’T Threaten violence in a National Newspaper and they ARE A THREAT whereas the FBI doesn’t treat people who are making actual threats as problems.

        I do wonder if we are back to the days where the FBI would not look into “Arab looking Men” taking lessons at a Texas flying school wanting to learn how to fly but not to land because they are afraid of “Racial Profiling”. Perhaps we aren’t back to it being that bad because I did hear of a guy who was arrested for planning attack on DC.

        Although the FBI haven’t released why he was planning an attack.

        He was a Moroccan man. Perhaps he is with this “Sovereign Citizens” group.

      • Jay R. Smith

        You are so right Bill!

        Here the occupy people can basically advocate violence in a national newspaper and the FBI does NOTHING.

        Yet this group of yahoos, and I don’t recommend talking about committing violence at any time for any reasons, but still these yahoos were probably drunk and yeah they were talking crap around the campfire among each other and they are the ones the FBI goes after? Not the guy who advocates violence in a Natitional Newspaper!

        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/militia-on-trial-good-ol-boys-and-preppers-or-anti-govt-domestic-terrorists/

        It just shows you how politically biased the FBI is. To them there’s “good terrorists”and “bad terrorists” depending upon the ideology of the terrorist.

        They do the same thing with eco terrorists. Groups like Animal Liberation Front. These groups don’t merely threaten acts of violence, they COMMIT acts of violence yet the FBI doesn’t go after them that strongly.

        I personally hold the FBI responsible for 9-11. They may not have known of the attack but THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. THE TEXAS FLIGHT SCHOOLS WARNED THEM but they choose for political reasons not to look at it. FBI those 3000 deaths are on your hands as much as they are on the hands of the terrorists!

      • Bill

        When Occupy commits a major act of violence, and I say when because it will happen, it will be the FBI’s fault.

        They can’t go “well we just didn’t know” although I am sure that is what they will try to say. Sure, just like with 9-11 they might not know the exact time or target of the attack but it’s not like they haven’t been warned that an attack is pending.

        HELL IT WAS IN USA TODAY! And when they say “WE DIDN’T know all I would have to do is post the exact article again where they (as well as the rest of us) were warned!

        I don’t know how the FBI got out of their responsibly for 9-11. The Texas Flight Schools did their patriotic duty by informing them what was going on. They PURPOSELY failed to do their jobs (remember this was in 2000 when Clinton was still President) because they didn’t want to offend the Arab/Muslim community,

        But we can not let them get out of the responsibility they will have regarding the occupy attack. THEY DIDN’T KNOW? HELL IT WAS IN USA TODAY!

        http://www.glennbeck.com/2012/02/23/occupier-says-they-may-take-up-guns-to-wall-street-capitals/

    • Mo

      Every episode they have to have at least one scene where Rayyan is naked. I find it very offensive.

  6. KelsShels

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/06/gender.blogging

    Tell my roommate that her TAKE ON THE WORLD attitude is going to get her in real danger, because she won’t listen to me.

    Read that link, Nahida. READ IT AGAIN.

    • Lily

      Drawing public attention to it will make it worse by encouraging attacks. I’m serious, shut up.

      Anyway, she said she MIGHT restart under a male pen name.

  7. Lily

    Anyway, I hear this season only has 11 episodes. Guess they’re killing it off pretty fast.

  8. Jay R. Smith

    Actually what Baber was doing is what many Muslims have been accused of doing in America.

    DELIBERATELY being provocative so that when people react to their provocations they can go RACIST – PROFILING – I SUE YOU ACLU!

    There was a group of Imams, and this was a while back now, who got the title “The Flying Imams” because they were getting on planes and purposely intimidating passengers while being careful not to break any laws. And there purpose was to set up a situation where their provocations would be reacted to and then they could sue.

    http://www.wnd.com/2009/10/113579/

    I didn’t find what Baber was doing funny in the least. Perhaps coming from a country where we suffered three major terrorist attacks in the span of 8 years (The First attack on the World Trade Center, The attack on the Murrah Building, and the of course the second World Trade Center attack) it just hits too close to home.

    • Bill

      Yeah, that whole thing with Baber was ugly and I didn’t find it at all funny.

      And then he drove the whole thing up to city hall. Sure it wasn’t connected but still just the whole thing with the fertilizer and remembering what happened to the Murrah building (or I should say what they claimed happened at least in regards to how it was all set off).

      It was in very poor taste indeed.

      Perhaps because Canada hasn’t suffered the violence we have in the US they thought it was something to laugh. Well there’s Occupy people in Canada too (Vancouver BC is where “Adbusters” originated) so it’s not like they are going to be immune when the violence gets hot and heavy this summer.

    • Sean

      When I heard that that Baber had all that material in the Church/Mosque I thought, Oh, I bet that Thorne is going to get arrested for suspicion of terrorism.

      • Bill

        Hell if it was the US they probably would arrest Thorne instead of Baber!

        You know those Brave FBI agents going after the “real threats” to America (returning Vets, drunk hicks talking crap, and tea party people who go on about “the constitution”) instead of people who threaten IN A NATIONAL NEWSPAPER violence!

        Yeah, the violence that Occupy will create this year is ON THEIR HEADS! They have had enough of a warning! Their failure to protect us will be willful malfeasance!

      • Sean

        Agreed. And they should be held to blame for what happened on 9-11. That was willful malfeasance on the FBI’s part as well.

        But no, just watch, all their failure to protect us against a pending OCCUPY attack will result in is a larger budget for them. I am not saying they wanted to see 9-11 to happen but 9-11 sure worked to their advantage in increased law enforcement funding.

  9. Jay R. Smith

    By the way, fertilizer is what they allegedly used on the Murrah attack. I said allegedly because there’s still so much conflicting information regarding the attack that hasn’t been cleared up including the possibility that there might have been at least some help from Muslim sources in the Philippines or that there were explosive devices in the building, there’s just so much stuff that has never been completely answered about the case.

    • Bill

      The difference is that I would want BOTH FRED AND BABER to be questioned for buying a lot of fertilizer and that Hippie Store owner too. I would want everyone who buys such a large amount of fertilizer to be questioned.

      Yeah, it may be nothing, but it doesn’t hurt to find out. Perhaps indeed “Fred has a big Lawn” or whatever legit excuse, so, they check it out and find out no problem. A lot better then finding out after the fact that indeed something was going on.

      Same thing with the whole “Learning to fly but not land” thing. See that would have been the part that would have bothered me more than the whole “arab looking” thing.

      Indeed we have hit a new phase where the next attack will probably be from a Rich White College Student who has become radicalized by Occupy so profiling alone won’t work (and I never believed in profiling alone). But they shouldn’t let fears of being accused of profiling prevent them from looking into obvious red flags, but that was the big thing in 2000, it was all about how bad profiling was. And as a result 3000 lost their lives in a completely preventable act.

      • Jay R. Smith

        Well if the Hippie shop owner was buying lots of fertilizer I think we would all have a pretty good idea why he was doing so.

      • Bill

        This is the difficulty of the times we livd in. How much surveillance vs the effect such surveillance has on liberty.

        I certainly wouldn’t want devices on the street that can like automatically write you up whenever you go beyond the speed limit (or perhaps the device would have to be in your car). Is that only because that’s a crime I am likely to commit whereas growing Marijuana isn’t?

        I have heard that if one uses “too much water” one might be investigated for having a possible marijuana growing operation. Is that wrong? Is that too much surveillance? It’s not like you are arrested for the water use. It just puts you on their radar.

        But as for investigating people for buying too much fertilizer I find that less troublesome given the great damage that can be done. Again, that alone doesn’t result in arrest, just brings authorities around to ask questions. And I don’t see this as a solely Muslim thing. Everyone who buys a lot of fertilizer should be asked questions.

        Yeah, I recognize the slippery slope especially given how law enforcement seems to lack common sense. But the alternative in this case seems to be mass destruction so heer is were the delicate balance so uncomfortable comes into play.

        The situation is difficult to begin with. It is made even worse when people go out of their way to be provocative.

  10. Nahida

    Ridiculousness aside, has anyone informed Jay R. Smith that he’s dead?

    • Bill

      Wow, a threat huh.

      But it’s okay when YOU make them, huh!

      • KelsShels

        She was referring to the dead actor from Little Rascals, you idiot. He has the same name.

      • Nahida

        Yeah Bill, when you choose a handle can you show some damn respect for people who have passed on and not IMPERSONATE them?

      • Lily

        LOL he thought it was a death threat!

        Even STEVE isn’t that much of an idiot.

        She was amusedly implying that you’re SOCKPUPPETING and telling you to stop picking dead guy’s names.

      • Lily

        Unless Bill IS Steve.

      • KelsShels

        Bill isn’t Steve. Steve thinks Nahida’s a snowflake.

      • Lily

        Well she kinda is… Just sayin’.

        But she’s Muslim so she must be making a death treat, huh, Bill, HUH!

      • Nahida

        Perhaps I was being “provocative on purpose” on that I could sue him?

      • Bill

        You did get that Baber’s objective when buying that fertilizer was to be provocative didn’t you? He wanted to provoke the Authorities, the show was quite clear about that, He wanted a response from law enforcement.

        And in America hopefully he would have received a response from law enforcement. Oh, you say, I am just saying that because he is Muslim. No, I actually don’t think that the next terrorist attack will come from the Muslims but instead by Occupy which to a large degree are rich spoiled white kids. So yeah, I would want someone who buys such a large amount of fertilizer to get a knock on the door.

        Now I don’t think someone should just be arrested for buying a large amount of fertilizer, but I see no reason why a request for an explanation is so out of order. It it scary the material that the average individual has in our modern society to cause some real destruction if that is the intent.

        It is a delicate balance that we face with protecting freedoms and ensuring safety. It doesn’t help when someone is purposely trying to mess with the system by being provocative. Just like those people who would joke before getting on airplanes (and this goes back way before 9-11). Just stfu!

      • Nahida

        Oh, I know Baber was trying to be provocative. Baber is a child.

        But the imams on the plane weren’t trying to be provocative. And quite clearly neither was I. I’ll make a note not to joke about actors rising from the dead to comment on blogs while Muslim, lest The Blaze picks it up. Kinda like how I make notes not to walk down alleyways while attractive woman. Or to not do anything. Ever.

      • Bill

        Those Imams were CLEARLY trying to be provocative.

        It was all political on their part and it worked like a charm!

      • Debora

        Nahida, I don’t think you should bother with this with what you’re going through right now. Might want to start on moving your site and writing under a male name.

      • Nahida

        The hell I will!

        Yeah, I’m not going to. And no one seems to believe it would work anyway. I asked someone I trust if she thought it would be effective and she advised me to continue under my own name since I’ve built a voice under it, and because I “have a pretty distinctive style”* so it’ll be obvious it’s me.

        *not sure if she meant this as a compliment

    • Bill

      Why, because he Dared criticize Muslims, or CAIR or the way many Muslims have abused our system!

      The way things are so arbitrarily enforced is an OUTRAGE. It is so political and as we found out on 9-11 it doesn’t keep our country safe but put it at more risk!

      3000 people paid for political correctness with their lives on 9-11!

      You are seeing the same thing going on with our border. Americans are deliberately denied critical protection because it ain’t politically correct. That has come at the cost of some people’s lives already but someday a major disaster might result from it!

      • Bill

        The way our laws are so arbitrarily enforced these days we live at the same time in a Police State and a state of lawlessness.

    • Jay R. Smith

      Clearly in today’s society it’s all about WHO GETS to be provocative.

      Flying Imams – They get to be provocative.

      Occupy – They get to be provocative.

      But if you have a bunch of yahoos sitting around the fire talking crap, then the authorities will descend upon you with guns drawn, Look I don’t recommend or even approve of what these yahoos did but DAMN you have a guy on USA Today say basically the same thing to millions and NOTHING happens. It’s the Fracking double standard that is so outrageous.

      I don’t think anyone should be talking about shooting cops or crap like that but when one group does and nothing happens to them and another group does and all hell descends upon them THAT’S WRONG!

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/militia-on-trial-good-ol-boys-and-preppers-or-anti-govt-domestic-terrorists/

      • Bill

        I don’t know much about Canadian Law but I know enough about Canadian Law to know that in real life Fred would be in Jail for the stuff he says on his radio program.

        It’s not as bad in the US but most likely here although he wouldn’t be in jail there is no way he would still be on the air. You only have to look at the most recent ESPN situation to see this.

  11. Bill

    You know one thing that really bothered me! It was how the mayor just waved the fees for the Mosque. Oh, you could say well there’s a religious exemption. Well first this is Canada so I don’t know if the same tax exempt stuff is true there as it is in America.

    But that wasn’t it. We weren’t talking about taxes. We were talking about fees. And the only reason those fees were waved was because they had the good graces of the Mayor. Had they not then yeah, she could have really hampered them.

    It doesn’t bother me that they had this in the show. I am glad they had it in the show because that is how things really are, at least in America. Small business are often just shut out because they can’t afford all the hoops they need to go through to get all the numerous permits. Now big money, big corporations they have the money to hire people who’s sole job is to go through the permit process. And they of course “bribe” public officials legally. Yeah they call it a campaign donation, but that’s what it is, legalized bribery.

    This is how crony capitalism works where big business uses government to shut out the little guy. The big corporations like that there’s a lot of hoops that only the most well heeled can get through because it means that startups don’t have a chance. Only if you are “in” with the powers to be are you allowed to operate.

    Look when a community wants a company in (usually a big company promising lots of jobs) yeah they will grease the skids and the red tape will magically fall away. Or if you are a contributor to the politicians at city hall. Otherwise if you are a mom and pop you risk arrest. It can really make one angry all the stories you hear about ordinary people losing their life savings and even going to jail because someone in the bureaucracy “just feels like it”. And this isn’t a Republican vs Democrat thing as you see this with Republican as well as Democrats. Crony capitalism for a lack of a better term (and this is only one part of the whole crony capitalist stuff you could also go into corporate welfare as part of the whole crony capitalist stuff) effects us from the local level all the way up to the Federal Government.

    I guess it’s fortunate for Amaar that his mother in law is best friends with the Mayor. That and it is politically incorrect to block Muslims. If he was trying to set up anything else, the permiting process alone would cost thousands and thousands and that is before considering the price of the land and the building.

      • Jay R. Smith

        I saw almost the whole Stossel show and I just couldn’t finish it.

        It made me angry.

        It made me cry.

        It almost and please the word almost is important here almost made me hate my country.

        I really don’t know how some public officials can live with themselves. The way they so freely destroy lives. And yeah, it doesn’t bother them.

        That one woman was in tears.

        You know I know we live in the best country in world but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t get downright ugly at times.

        I am glad that that Little Mosque episode kind of brought this whole “Crony Capitalism” stuff up when the major mentioned to Ammar that if he was someone else she would have buried him with permit fees.

      • Jay R. Smith

        That whole licensing thing was so like what played out on Little Mosque on the Prairie last week.

        Amaar could get the property stopped from being torn down and even he could afford to buy the property to begin with because he was an insider.

        You have to wonder why the property didn’t sell before. Sure perhaps no one had a proper use for it, but it is also possible that people had looked at it, decided BECAUSE of all the permits and such they just couldn’t make a go of the property financially.

        But Amaar could make a go of the property because he didn’t have to calculate the expenses of the permits and such.

        So, here’s a case of the Government choosing Winners and Losers in regards to real estate , And of course the winner is the one who is closest to the Mayor.

        The mayor is my favorite character in the show. Not because I like her but because she realistically portrays how mayors are in real life to a large degree.

      • Bill

        The full documentary.

    • Sue

      You can certainly see a scenario where the former owner of the property went into bankruptcy and lost everything for the lack of funds to repair the place due to all of the permits and such. And so now Amaar can pick it up on the cheap.

      By the way, what does this show have against Wicca? I mention that because the reason one of the other properties was deemed unsuitable was because it had a pentagram on it. Surely that could have been removed in the remodel.

      Wicca isn’t the same as devil worship! The pentagram isn’t evil. Its religious symbolism is commonly explained by reference to the neo-Pythagorean understanding that the five vertices of the pentagram represent the four elements with the addition of Spirit as the uppermost point. As a representation of the elements, the pentagram is involved in the Wiccan practice of summoning the elemental spirits of the four directions at the beginning of a ritual.

      The pentagram has also historically been used as a symbol by Christians. It was a symbol for the five senses, Medieval Christians believed that the “pentalpha” symbolizes the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against demons.

      The five-pointed star is also the symbol of the Bahá’í Faith.[19][20] In the Bahá’í Faith, the star is known as the Haykal (Arabic: “temple”‎), and it was initiated and established by the Báb.

      I am just saying, this show is supposed to be about religious diversity and tolerance yet it makes fun of something just because it has a Pentagram on it! Why all the hate for Paganism/Wicca! And like I have shown it isn’t even a symbol unique to them but used by Christians as well!

  12. Sue

    I thought someone here would discuss how Sarah is no longer a Muslim anymore.

    She is even eating bacon.

    By the way, when I was in Hawaii I had some Turkey bacon. They taste almost like the real stuff for those of you Muslims who ever wondered what Bacon tasted like.

    But back to Sarah, what do you think this says about whether Islam will ever to a large extent recruit whites?

    I guess White People just can’t handle being Muslim. It’s a “brown thing”.

    • Nahida

      One of my extraordinarily good friends is a convert. She’s also white, and married a Muslim. But (not that there is need for justification) she studied Islam on her own before she married him and had a genuine interest. I know a couple of converts who question their faith after a divorce (but are still good, wonderful people and very strong and admirable in their skepticism), but also more who sincere and truly pious and continue practicing Islam after the divorce. It’s upsetting that they aren’t represented in this show, and quite damaging because converts are unIslamically discredited on the basis that they’re converts. It isn’t just. The Prophet himself was kind of a convert after all.

      Anyway, I mention her because once she said that she wished she’d tried a certain type of wine before she converted. At this I burst into shocked, delighted laughter. I’ll never know what whine tastes like (never even had the chance), but I always sort of wondered, and was horrified with myself for having such a thought!

  13. Brian Johnson

    Wow, with all the issues this episode raised this must be the most controversial episode of the whole season!

    To the guy who said what Baber did was “Lovable” WTF!

    At the very least he was wasting law enforcement resources the same way someone who calls in a false 911 call does.

    It does bring up the whole “Flying Imam” thing. Not saying all Muslims do it but there are Muslims who for political reasons do try to provoke which makes it all the harder for us to catch the ones who are really a danger.

    Here’s the truth about the Flying Imams from a guy who knows them!

    http://www.meforum.org/1809/exposing-the-flying-imams

  14. Brian Johnson

    Some in the FBI tried to do something before 9-11 but the higher ups stopped them.

    Why? Did they want 9-11 to happen? Just like people accuse FDR of allowing the Pearl Harbor attack?

    I think the truth, while not directly as dastardly still very condemning is that the political minded higher ups were afraid of political fallout from the Muslim community in America and most specifically fears of accusations of “Profiling” which was a popular and career ending accusation that was being leveled at FBI officials back then.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/05/22/9.11.warnings.facts/index.html

    Warnings of al Qaeda attacks on the United States began as far back as 1995, when an accomplice of Ramzi Yousef — mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing — told Philippine authorities that he learned to fly at U.S. flight schools and had plotted to hijack an aircraft and crash it into the Central Intelligence Agency’s Langley, Virginia, headquarters. (Timeline)

    Another disclosure was a memo written by an FBI agent in Phoenix, Arizona, that theorized Middle Eastern students at an Arizona flight school could be al Qaeda agents in training for hijackings. Agent Ken Williams sent it to the counterterrorism division at the FBI’s Washington headquarters, where analysts reviewed the memo but deferred any action. The White House was never informed about the memo before September 11

  15. Brian Johnson

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12034

    When an FBI agent rushed to her supervisors to inform them that “Saudi men” were learning to fly but not land airplanes, no one lifted a finger. Agents were told that CIA analysts were receiving cable after cable indicating that Jihadist elements were mounting operations against the mainland, and possibly planning to use planes. But the agency’s political bosses had not produced guidelines to help the analysts properly recognize the terrorist threat. In 1998, bin Laden himself declared war against infidel America. The White House did not hear and Congress did not see. Back in 1994, a former CNN journalist, now an MSNBC Terrorism analyst, Steven Emerson, filmed Jihad preachers in New York calling for violence and showed it to the nation. Not only was there no response, but Wahhabi political factions began systematically lobbying against a crackdown. Worse, all experts who attempted to warn America were suppressed by Arabist-Islamist factions. The Wahhabi Lobby claimed that, “warning from the Jihad threat was a cover for pro-Zionist propaganda to advance Israel’s interests!” Overall, the American public was denied every single opportunity to be educated.

  16. Steve

    Nahida, you know what really hurts me.

    I mean deeply.

    Your lack of intellectual honestly when it comes to stuff like “the Flying Imams” and the “Ground Zero Mosque”.

    Come on, have the courage to call a spade a spade, or at least provide real evidence that these weren’t provocations just like evidence has been provided that they were

    And why the hell did that kid point the WTC building and tell his teacher that “next week that building wasn’t going to be there? That didn’t come from a RIGHTWINGER it actually came from a Leftist journalist whose purpose in doing the story was to dispel such incendiary rumors (and then was shocked to find out that no indeed it happened).

    Not blaming all Muslims, indeed not blaming most Muslims, but indeed there was and still is an element out there wanting to do us harm to one degree or another.

    But Bill is right, the whole Muslim Extremist thing is going to be overshadowed by Occupy. So to what extent Muslims have had to suffer with the whole “Terrorist Image” (and yeah they have had to but I would say to some extent that was unavoidable and I personally have tried to mitigate it in my mind while still trying to be real about things) that would soon fade away as the new image of terror will reveal itself. And with Occupy unlike with Muslims, yeah basically it is all of them. Sure not all of them commit the acts but the others cheer on those who do.

    So yeah, the focus will soon be off your community and upon people like Kelshels. I jut hope you don’t get messed up with these Occupy freaks.

  17. Nahida

    Steve, you do realize I don’t consider half those sources “proof”? “Half” is pretty generous, because I think there were only two. I wouldn’t want to be on a plane with those guys because they sound obnoxious, not because they sound like terrorists. I hate it when people obstruct the aisles. I’d be shooting them dirty looks the whole flight over my Patricia C. Wrede novels. If they really weren’t in their assigned seats they should have been kicked off the plane. (Though I imagine that would be difficult to execute in the air; I’m too tempted to just hand annoying passengers parachutes and shove them out a window.*) None of it sounds like “suspicious behavior”–it just sounds like they were oblivious to standards of decency. I really don’t trust reporters, I’m highly suspicious of most journalists and pissed off that they’ve bought into this ridiculous left-right hegemony that we’ve allowed to rule American discourse, and I wasn’t on the plane when it happened to be able to decipher whether they were intending to be provocative. And you know why I don’t believe it? Because I don’t intend to be provocative when I speak Arabic, or make zombie actor jokes, or bend over to fix the strap on my high heel shoes, or talk about moving to Boston, or smile at a guy who incidentally happens to believe this is an invitation to hit on me. Because I don’t ask for it. And because you make really gross assumptions. Kelly has never been to a single Occupy event. Students at these events have been brutally assaulted by authorities even when they’re just sitting around so I don’t understand why Bill is whining about how the authorities aren’t doing anything, and the Occupiers who don’t commit violence certainly do not cheer on the ones who do. You saw the video of the guy screaming that they were better than this yourself.

    I don’t think we’re living in the same world. I mean, with the same information. When you argue with someone of a different ideology you’re not arguing isolated issues, you’re trying to communicate an entire realm of reality, on which your mentality is constructed, that the other person for a variety of reasons may not understand. And you’re not quite sure what to say to make it click, and in the process you’ll offend them over and over. Do you remember Fatima? You probably don’t understand why it made her so FURIOUS that you compared your approach to Muslims to a woman’s approach to men, because you both have vastly different theories of demographic power dynamics and perceptions of history that you’ve internalized .

    You can’t judge whether people are good or bad if you’re both looking out different windows on the sides of a train and then arguing about what you see.

    Building a mosque takes time and money and community and unnecessary harassment for donations. It’s not something people do just to be assholes. If I wanted to build a mosque I couldn’t just do it anywhere. What mixed congregation would pray behind a female imam, unless she were in a location with a high population of religious feminists? Chances are the location for this mosque was chosen for specific reasons.

    Anyway, I have to go back to attempting to kick some guys ass for sending me rape threats. Usual maintenance, for some reason building up in the last couple of weeks.

    *This is a joke, Bill.

    • Steve

      Building a mosque takes time and money and community and unnecessary harassment for donations.

      Saudi Arabian Wahhabi money is behind the Ground Zero Mosque.

      And there too you have hypocrisy. The same city that is allowing a Mosque/Cultural Center to be built neighboring Ground Zero is not allowing a church that was destroyed by the 9-11 attacks to be RE-BUILT.

    • Steve

      Students at these events have been brutally assaulted by authorities even when they’re just sitting around

      That’s a lie. They were participating in the riot. Now who is trusting reporters.

      Look, you may not have been around for the riots in 1999 but I was. I saw what they did to my city.

      And then, like now, they more or less got away with it.

  18. Debora

    The violent youtube comments about how protestors will eventually realize they outnumber the police are detestable and uncalled for. Violence doesn’t solve violence. But nothing justifies what happened in the video.

    • Steve

      Oh, they mean it…

      Look the cops are a lot better people than I am. I personally would just call in sick. Hell, let them burn down Oakland, or Berkeley or wherever because it’s not like the government there has the police’s back.

      But then again that’s why I am not a cop. It would take a much better person than I am. And that’s what bugs me so much when these people are accused of being such bad people – pigs – when the truth really is that they are the best of us.

      The Pigs are the occupy people. They act like animals and wallow in their own filth.

    • Steve

      Debora, say I come to where you live (now I don’t mean really because I don’t know where you live) and block you from leaving. You can’t go to school, or get food, or anything because I and a few friends are standing in your way, blocking you from exiting.

      What would you do?

      Well probably call the police right?

      And what would they do, probably what you see in this video.

      The Tea Party never blocked roads or hindered cops or any stuff like that. But Occupy does. Occupy destroys small business in the area people people can not freely come and go to the shops and restaurants.

      What do you expect the cops to do when people just stand in the way like that? Personally again I would say the hell with it, let the Businesses just die. It’s their fault for setting up shop in such a liberal city. But then again, that’s probably why I am not a cop.

      The people here could have always dispersed. They were hankering for a conflict, much like Baber was.

      • Steve

        Debora, say while you are gone I just broke into where you lived and had a party. Invited a few friends over as well.

        And then when you returned, I didn’t leave. Hell. I said I am staying. This is my place now.

        What would you do?

        Probably call the cops right?

        Too bad, they are too busy with occupy. Guess you will have to find somewhere else to sleep tonight!

        Okay, say the cops did come what would they do?

        They would first ask me to step outside. And when I refused to comply they would drag me out. It wouldn’t be pretty would it!

        Again I was talking hypothetically because I don’t know where you live.

      • Debora

        They weren’t blocked from existing.

      • Debora

        Now who is trusting reporters.

        Actually she’s telling you what she saw walking to class.

      • Debora

        exiting, I mean

      • Nahida

        What if I sat on the wrong side of the barrier in a mosque, Steve, like I’ve done before? What if the men thought to call the police? I mean, that’s still private property isn’t it? I’m disturbing their segregation. After all, they couldn’t possibly pray with a woman praying there. And the police arrive and I don’t want to move, should they kick me into submission?

  19. KelsShels

    You don’t give people a chance, Steve. You think you’ve got them all figured out.

    Most of them are normal people, who react normally when you’re cruel to them. And so you walk away thinking you were right, and they were bad people.

    Once in a while there’s a snowflake like Nahida. She doesn’t forget good things about people. Maybe because humans see what we are, and she’s a little better, so she thinks everyone is like her.

    But most people are normal. You can’t just act like you do and then think you’re right when they aren’t nice to you.

  20. Steve

    Nahida, the police doesn’t act without provocation because they don’t like the bad press.

    I saw what these people did to my city in 1999 when the WTO came to town. I know what these people are capable of.

    I am so tired of this double standard. Why do you think Bill is going on about how the police isn’t doing anything about the Occupy threat? Well perhaps he was as angry as I was when he read how that guy threatened to “practice their second Amendment rights on Wall Street.”

    Now could you imagine what would have happened if our side said something like that? They would have had that guy in lockdown so fast it would make his head spin. I know. I have seen it happen for much less.

    Why is it that during the Bush years i read threat after threat made against him on the internet (some you could even still find on the internet) and nothing happened? You know what would happen now. Mind you. Bush isn’t one of my favorite people but still.

    We know this occupy thing has just started. Things got pretty bad this fall with all the threats they were making, and now things are just starting to heat up again, Yet the authorities sit back and do nothing. Just like they do with the border. Just like they did pre-9-11.

    Yeah, it is going to be a long hot summer. Something unlike what you and I have ever seen, even worse than the summer of 68.

    • Nahida

      Nahida, the police doesn’t act without provocation because they don’t like the bad press.

      *headdesk*

      I’ve had to call the police before. Really recently, actually. (Did you know that if you dial 911 your cell phone deletes the number from your history? I went to delete it after I called and it was already gone. That’s genius!) I wonder if they heard the dangerous screaming and shattering downstairs while I told them to hurry, please. I was frustrated that the person on the other end could be so calm and continue to ask me questions about the situation, but I figure they must get these calls all the time. I couldn’t get my voice to stop sounding so distressed until he told me he had already sent someone, he just needed to ask questions while they were on the way. When he was done he asked if I wanted him to stay on the line. I said no, hung up, and applied my makeup while waiting for them to arrive. They came in 10 minutes.

      The police have always been good to me. I’m sure most of them are wonderful. But you can’t make a statement as simple as bad press would keep them in line. I don’t trust reporters but I do trust pictures and video.

      I mean there’s this: http://www.care2.com/causes/florida-man-tortured-and-pepper-sprayed-to-death-by-police.html

      Photo at the bottom. He’s in restraints, tied to a chair where he can’t possibly hurt anyone, and he’s been pepper sprayed anyway. He died from the torture.

      There was also that teenage girl who was brutally beaten when taken in that the surveillance camera picked up. He said she threw her shoe at him. I don’t think that’s nearly enough to call for brutal kicking and punching even after she’s on the ground.

      Like Debora said I’m pretty sure the students weren’t blocked from exiting. They could have gone around the bushes. I wouldn’t have though, if they were really holding me hostage. I would have sat them all down and walked down the row taking their names and fining them each hundreds of dollars for overstaying. With rising tuition costs that’ll make them leave–probably by the time I have the first three people down the rest of them’ll head back to the dorms running.

      • Nahida

        the police weren’t blocked*

      • Bill

        What if I won’t give you my name PIG!

        Oh, my name is Anonymous. Do you want me to spell that for you PIG!

        These occupiers are pretty well trained themselves. They put together classes beforehand on how to respond.

        I would have sat them all down…

        What do you mean “Sat them down”? Physically push then down? What if they wanted to stand?

      • Steve

        Nahida, I have to admit like you I have more of a mixed view of Law Enforcement.

        You want to support them. You want to believe the best about them but then you do have the cops who act out of line.

        I think my mixed feelings kind of shows on how I view the FBI. There were some very good agents who were trying to warn us about the risks they were seeing in regards to the pending 9-11 attack but the higher ups were preventing them.

        In how the the foot cop is responding to Occupy however when they riot, I am sorry, I am going to have to side with the Police here. I don’t know what you saw, but in a situation where the students (in this case I guess) is deliberately setting up a conflict with them the cops have every right to respond. The thing about “You Tube” videos is that you don’t get to see what happened before. No do you really get the context to the situation.

        As for “innocent” students who might have been caught up in the crossfire, well at best this was a case of them being there because they wanted to see what was going on. Well when you do that you risk being caught in the crossfire.

        What really gets me is how the laws are unequally applied ,

        Check this out…

        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/occupy-supporter-threatens-to-storm-wall-st-and-capitals-with-guns-in-usa-today-is-this-him/

        If a Tea Partier had said this he would be in jail but this guy to the best of my knowledge is walking around free. And hell, they made Ayers a professor. Do you thinK McVeigh (if he was alive) would have ever got to become a professor. And I for one wouldn’t want McVeigh to be a professor. I am glad he was executed (well perhaps the only reason I am not glad he was executed is because a lot remains unanswered and some of that died with him). That’s the difference.

  21. Steve

    Nahida, we are not from the same world despite being from the same country, I believe you are right there. We live in a deeply divided society, divided ideology, you from the Left and those us from the Right, and there is no way we will ever understand each other.

    Our enemies exploit this division and that is how they could pull off something like 9-11.

    Our country is dying. It has been all my life. I wish I could be more positive about things but there isn’t much to be positive about. The Left has been successful in their controlled demolition of our nation but in the end it will be a hollow victory for you because what will you build in its wake?

    We saw actually what your world looks like in the Occupation camps this last fall. The rapes, the drugs, the crime. That really is the end result of your ideology. That’s the future for our whole country.

    • Debora

      Steve, who are you even talking to? Do you even know her ideology?

      And did you just imply you had a problem with the Civil Rights Movement?

    • Nahida

      The Left has been successful in their controlled demolition of our nation but in the end it will be a hollow victory for you because what will you build in its wake?

      Who, me? Or the left? Or are we the same thing?

      Yeah, I don’t know what he’s talking about either, Debbie. Steve everything you say sounds like some mad conspiracy theory. Or like I’m missing pieces.

      • Nahida

        and there is no way we will ever understand each other.

        Well aren’t you just a ray of sunshine! I’m just going to skip along and stop trying.

        You know, Steve, I don’t understand why you think you’re such a terrible person. Sometimes it just comes across as lazy to me. Like you’ve “accepted” it so that you don’t have to put in any effort. “I can act like this but it doesn’t count because hell–I’m just not a good person! Move along.”

        Too bad you are, Steve. Now stop slacking off.
        =

      • Steve

        Never said I was a terrible person in the sense you are employing it.

        It’s more of a case of me trying to be as ruthless as the Left is.

        Of course that is impossible because there are none so ruthless.

        I will never give a Leftist a break because they would never give us a break in a similar situation. And I know what Leftists are for the most part made of. Evil!

        Look, Nahida you said it as well as I did. We have no common ground. There’s no failure of understanding. In fact I understand the Left all too well.

        Oh, compared to the police yeah, I am a terrible person. They are the best of us. Me, like I said I would call in sick and just let the Occupy people burn the Oakland city hall to the ground. It’s not like the mayor has my back.

      • Steve

        You are missing pieces.

        I don’t know where you get the “mad conspiracy” part. It’s just a case of like minded people with a plan.

  22. Steve

    I wasn’t really a tea partier. I had grown cynical of the system before then and really feared that the “tea Party” would be just as unsuccessful as the “Republican Revolution” and the United We Stand Movements of the 1990s which I was more involved with.

    But the truth is that the Press lied about the Tea Party movement. All the things they claimed the tea party was, it wasn’t. It wasn’t violent.

    But occupy on the other hand is violent yet the Press downplays it. OCCUPY is what the Press falsely condemned tea party as being. It’s the hypocrisy that is so outrageous.

    Occupy is going to be responsible for so much destruction this year but the Press will romanticize it. They are the “Good Terrorists”. Just like the Eco Terrorists are. Just like the people who bombed things at the Universities in the 1960s were.Hell Ayers is a friend of our current President.

    It’s the hypocrisy that will make you the angriest. To compare how the tea partiers were treated to how the occupied people are being treated.

    In the end its the LEFT who is what they accuse us of being. They are the racists. They are the terrorists. And it is they who will bring about the destruction of America. I am under no illusions. The elections this year will be fixed through intimidation and fraud to ensure Obama’s re-election. And if, if I am wrong (which I rarely am) and Obama loses you Leftists will burn the whole thing down. Win Win from your viewpoint.

    Hell, you Leftists will probably burn the whole thing down anyway.

  23. Steve

    . I was frustrated that the person on the other end could be so calm and continue to ask me questions about the situation, but I figure they must get these calls all the time..

    Um, and I guess I am only speaking for where I live but yeah they are highly trained to do just that. I took a “citizen’s academy” class our local 911 center had a while back. At least where I live they are highly trained. Before becoming a 9-11 operator you have to go through months of training and you go through various scenarios.

    The one thing I thought and I put it on the comments section, is that the operators should state that help is on the way, Because yeah they can talk and call for response at the same time. As response is on route it is their responsibility to get as much information as possible which they relay to the first responders in real time while they are still talking to you.

    Sometimes even despite their professionalism mistakes happen, but rarely. And yeah, part of their professionalism is a calm professional tone despite how they might be feeling. Kind of surprised you would want otherwise.

    As for your phone not indicating that you made a 911 call. Yeah that is kind of surprising I must admit that the few times I called 911 I didn’t check afterwards to see if my phone indicated that a call was made. But these calls become public records. They are recorded for purpose of trial if it comes to that, they are reviewed for quality control purposes, and as public records the news media are even allowed access to them. So from that end at least it’s not like it can be claimed that the call didn’t happen.

    • Nahida

      I was checking so that I could delete it. It would have been dangerous if anyone (other than the police) found out I was the one who made the call. I don’t mind if the authorities can access that information, as long as anyone would might have grabbed my phone couldn’t.

      Once one of my friends was on a date once with a guy and he ended up trying to attack her. She called the police without him knowing right before he became highly suspicious and confiscated her phone. No record of the call so she was spared from him angrily lashing out.

      I was only bewildered that the operator was so calm because I wasn’t sure if he’d already sent help, and I was too flustered to ask and wasn’t even sure whether it would be appropriate/polite to ask. And I was afraid I was being difficult already, because when he asked for a race I gave him a physical description instead. He was quiet for a moment and then said, “Okay, Miss.” That was kind. I didn’t want to bother him about whether he’d already sent someone on top of it, as if I were telling him how to handle things. I’m glad it eventually occurred to him to tell me.

      I dont recall saying we have no common ground, but if that’s how you see it Steve there’s no point in this conversation. I don’t think you know who I am, and if anything you said made the least bit sense it would mean that the friends I have who are right-wingers and I shouldn’t be able to get along as well as we do. So I guess one of us must be lying about who we are, either me or them. But I don’t think it’s either of us, I think your way of measuring good and evil is almost religiously fallacious.

      Which one of us is it, Steve? Why do I get along with them, and they with me?

      • Debora

        I have noticed that you take a different tone with Nahida.

        How is that accommodated into your perspective, Steve? If the Right and the Left are respectively good and evil, how do you explain her existence? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

      • Steve

        I don’t think we’re living in the same world. I mean, with the same information. When you argue with someone of a different ideology you’re not arguing isolated issues, you’re trying to communicate an entire realm of reality, on which your mentality is constructed, that the other person for a variety of reasons may not understand.

        I think you said it as well as anyone. We can look at the same event and see two different things. We don’t have the same frame of reference.

        We are more divided as a country than we ever have been. I really often wish that we could just divide the country in half and one side goes to one half and the other side goes to the other half. Because it has gotten that bad.

        Heck, as a people, with a common perspective and all of that we were more United during the Civil War than we are now.

      • Steve

        Debora, I believe all of us here agree that Nahida is different.

        Snowflake, remember…

      • Steve

        Which one of us is it, Steve? Why do I get along with them, and they with me?

        Because they don’t talk politics with you. Or perhaps because they aren’t that politically minded.

        I have often thought that I had a Liberal Mentality but Conservative Ideology. Most conservatives aren’t really consumed by politics to the same extent the Liberals are. Now there are some conservatives that are but I mean in general.

        One thing is I bet they bite their tongues a lot and not say what they really think. I must admit even I do that more than I really should. It’s the Left that typically doesn’t care if they make a scene or not.

      • Debora

        No… actually, Steve, her Conservative friends talk politics all the time. They’re even involved in political clubs on campus. They have raging arguments with her. And yet they continue to be friends.

      • Debora

        Hell, she even dated one of them once.

        She doesn’t agree to date often, mind you, so that made it even more “extraordinary.” (If you think these kinds of things are impossible.) It was the only time she didn’t end it herself, too.

        He was VERY outspoken. He was much kinder to her, though, for some reason. Now that I think about it. I mean he said the same political stuff and his positions were just as strong, except… I can’t really explain it, I guess. They argued all the time but somehow were still deeply affectionate at the end. It ended when he transferred, though neither of them really wanted it to. Doesn’t fit your theory.

      • Debora

        It’s the Left that typically doesn’t care if they make a scene or not.

        Well they don’t argue in public. Nahida’s not the type. And I’m pretty sure neither are they. He was outspoken in debate settings and quietly, with her.

      • Steve

        Nahida is Liberal with a conservative mindset. I am conservative with a liberal mindset.

      • Steve

        Mentality is probably a better word than mindset.

      • Steve

        Why do I get along with them, and they with me?

        It is because despite your Liberal Ideology you have a conservative mentality.

        Whereas I despite my conservative ideology have a liberal mentality. Republicans get so pissed by me. They aren’t used to attacks coming from my direction.

      • Steve

        I bet Kelshels doesn’t get along with Nahida’s conservative friends.

        Yeah, her I understand. All too well.

      • Steve

        So I guess one of us must be lying about who we are, either me or them.

        IT’S THEM.

        Although it’s a little harsh calling what they do lying.

        First for many of them politics really isn’t a thing that really dominates their lives.

        But for those who it is yeah, they aren’t really being true to themselves. They bite their tongue. They don’t challenge when offended.

        Partly they do it to be polite but also they do it because of the high cost for them if they do it. Just like the discussion above about how some people are allowed to provoke and some aren’t. Particularly in the environment that Nahida meets them in (a University) the cost for them to express their views are very high.

        This happens to conservatives who you wouldn’t even expect it to. Yeah, despite my goal of “Being as ruthless as a Leftist” I have been in situations where I have remained silent. Glenn Beck tells a wonderful story about how he got onto the elevator once with the head of GE (accidentally of course). All he wanted to do was to finish his elevator ride without incident and so he tried to just remain silent although the guy started provoking him slightly. His sidekick justly criticized him because Beck previously had been talking about the importance of standing.

  24. Steve

    , Because yeah they can talk and call for response at the same time. As response is on route it is their responsibility to get as much information as possible which they relay to the first responders in real time while they are still talking to you.

    Actually if I remember right there’s actually two people who handle the call. You have the one who is actually on the phone with the “customer” and that person through typing sends the information on, and then you have someone who is on the line with the first responder who is listening in to the call.

    I am pretty satisfied with our 9-11 service. The only problem I see with it at this point is the difficulty that at least when I was taking the class it appeared to have with calling in emergencies happening in other regions which of course in the cyber world we live in today has been known to be a necessity from time to time. I mean cases where you might be like texting with a friend from another state or whatever and that person suddenly needs a response from a first responder but you are the only one aware of it. It can be very difficult for you to summon help to that person in another region.

  25. Nahida

    I’m officially bored with this conversation.

    Before I return to writing, however: I don’t understand Steve’s appeal to my sense of intellectual honesty in recognizing hypocrisy, as I’ve stated before that the church should have been rebuilt, have in writing criticized the Left, and (he doesn’t know this part) was acutely aware of media approaches to either party after the introduction of Sarah Palin especially since it involved so much sexism from both the left and right. I detest Palin as much as anyone else who wants to legislate my uterus with anti-abortion laws, but I’d rather everyone shut up about how much she spent on her wardrobe. Are you fucking kidding me? How much does it cost to even run a campaign? Biggest waste of money ever. She could have bought herself a private island for all I care—it wouldn’t have been any different from male politicians buying themselves fake reputations. It’s a broken system, not something specific to her. What was all that bullshit about her thinking Africa is a country and every sexist dudebro giggling about how adorable she is? There’s a fucking country called South Africa, and what probably happened is someone brought it up and she wanted to know if they were referring to the region or the country.* People assume the WORST about their ideological “opposite” when they aren’t present to witness the situation. Like Palin must not know that Africa isn’t a country, or that guys in beards obstructing the aisles must be intentionally provocative. In response to Palin and Clinton the most hideous, egregiously despicable characteristics from the men of every ideology shamelessly surfaced. They’re all scum. (I realize I’ve descended to ranting, bringing it up now.) I won’t start on the invented pregnancy hoax because I will cease to be coherent. Also Feministe says it better: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/04/14/dear-everyone-please-stop-with-the-sarah-palin-pregnancy-hoax-rumors/

    Talk about DISTASTEFUL.

    What the hell was my point? Oh right. I was wholly conscious that Obama came across as bipartisan and open-minded because he didn’t have to be aggressive like the Republican candidates. There were a good number of racist dunderheads, but overall he had a clear majority of the media support. McCain making jokes about how he’s not about to place himself in the White House before he even wins the election did not help his campaign, but it’s a tactic Obama never even needed to employ because it’s very convenient to talk about peace when you have people being aggressive for you. I know how this works. I get this all the time, being told to calm the hell down about male privilege by someone with a Y chromosome who comes across not only as rational but so edgy even though he’s spewing the most mainstream, status-quo bullshit imaginable.

    I’m feeling particularly misanthropic today.

    Anyway, I don’t view those who deviate from the most basic standards of humanity (via murder, rape, violent riots, etc) as politically motivated as much as they are looking for excuses to carry out their douchebaggery, especially considering that the former perspective is so damaging to women who share the ideology and are discredited on the basis of the stupid shit men are doing. The black men in the Civil Rights Movement were HUGELY sexist, incredibly violent toward the black women who fought for liberation for their sex, even called them traitors—and the same exact arguments were made (some by white feminists!) for why such a racist social order should be maintained. You would think that being oppressed would make them aware of their own oppressive dynamics. But the fact that a good number of black men in the movement were assholes doesn’t make the Civil Rights Movement wrong. I don’t think Occupy is comparable (anymore) or has a point (if it ever did) to the least, but violence can’t be regulated to either ideology—prejudice is embedded into the contextual structures of our society: you can hold individuals accountable but it’s foolish to dismiss an entire ideology encompassing a massive variety of individuals.

    Astonishingly, a couple of my conservative friends understood the Halloween campaign when I explained it to them in terms of the functionality of white culture selectively choosing what becomes mainstream or considered “American culture” without respect to the people of color from whom they appropriate, and in terms of tactfulness in whether it was consistent of them to believe women should be socially shamed into dressing tastefully but that no one else’s distasteful racist stereotypes should be socially unacceptable.

    Politics aren’t the meaning of existence. They aren’t even really real. They don’t make or break friendships (unless you give them that artificial power), they don’t say anything about someone’s idiosyncratic political nuances, they don’t say anything about how essentially good or bad a person is, most people have deep and meaningful relationships by transcending past politics into a higher realm where they truly care about the other person, and talking about political labels is pointless when you’re just stuck on the label instead of exploring the processes behind them.

    See y’all around.

    *I still think she’s an idiot. Just not for these reasons.

    • Lily

      And there was Bachman, too. I think she’s batshit insane, but that picture of her that some asshole took? AND THE SONG. THE SONG THEY PLAYED WHEN SHE CAME ON SOME TALKSHOW. I forget which talkshow. Unacceptable.

  26. Steve

    but violence can’t be regulated to either ideology—

    See that’s a lie. It has predominately come from the Left at least in the US.

    Historically speaking and even now.

    You can’t point to a conservative version of Occupy. Oh, the Press, they Press SAID about the Tea Party what is true about Occupy but they were lying.

    Heck from my “liberal mindset” I kind of wish that the Tea Party was more aggressive. Especially like at Republican conventions. In the end they allowed the establishment to walk all over them.

  27. Steve

    They don’t make or break friendships

    They should. If people were really serious about what they believe then how can they really be friends with people helping to bring about the evil you are trying to fight.

    But that’s a Liberal Mindset on my part.

    • Nahida

      No they shouldn’t. Friendship isn’t a political alliance, and to reduce it to one is missing something essential. What would that mean? Would you abandon them at a disagreement? A disagreement that places them on the other side of some superficial ideological line? People are more than that.

  28. Steve

    Astonishingly, a couple of my conservative friends understood the Halloween campaign..

    They were “Lying” to You.

    They just wanted you to shut up so they probably went “uh huh” and you took it as agreement. Or they agreed that CERTAIN costumes were offensive. What can I say. Jerks exist. Usually those who would engage in such activity aren’t political, or even come from the Left those damn hypocrites. Liberals are just the worse.

    That whole “Halloween Campaign” was the “Offend Olympics” on steroids. It reminds me of how Halloween was canceled in a whole school district because a Wiccan called up and complained.

    Can you say WHEAT WEEK anyone!

    • Bill

      Kind of like how Joe Biden has made some jokes about Indians (from India) and he is NEVER called on it.

      I myself have seen liberals do some EXTREMELY distasteful things, things if had it come from our side would NEVER have been tolerated.

      But they get away with it.

      • Debora

        The campaign was TARGETING Liberals.

      • Debora

        Like, it was started by feminists of color like Nahida to target liberals in their OWN circle.

      • Steve

        Then I am all for it then. I love to see when a Leftist does go down on friendly fire.

        But then again that rarely happens. Biden can make all the jokes he can about how many Indians he sees at 7-11 Hell Teddy Kennedy can kill a woman and nothing happens.

      • Debora

        Of course Nahida never told you who it was targeting because she holds people accountable by their actions and not ideology. It didn’t matter to her, and she doesn’t believe it should matter to anyone else.

        Sometimes she’s at ends: http://thefatalfeminist.com/2012/02/20/why-i-cannot-support-the-legalization-of-prostitution/

        She was criticized for that post.

      • Nahida

        Then I am all for it then.

        I don’t like this game. =(

      • Steve

        As to prostitution legalization that’s more of a libertarian position rather than Conservative vs Liberal (in fact Libertarianism is one of the few areas that you might find where those you typically might label conservative and those you typically might label Liberal sometimes intersects).

        From a more conservative perspective it’s not so much a support for the practice but a belief that enforcement of it’s illegality is counter productive.

        I for one disagree with the ideal of prostitution legalization. There’s no doubt that Stossel goes too far in the legalization concept but still at this point in our history we need to start going in Stossel’s direction (just not on prostitution legalization). It’s the same problem I have with Ron Paul. I love his direction though I would probably be against some of his final results if he totally got his way.

        But it’s the direction that I tend to support. Just not on prostitution and drugs though I understand the reasoning behind it and even to some extent respect the reasoning behind it.

      • Debora

        She wants marijuana legalized though, with that same reasoning. She said the reasoning doesn’t apply to prostitution in reducing harm.

  29. Steve

    I myself was all willing to hang the ESPN guy. I thought what he did was offensive and it didn’t even occur to me that he might have not been as racially aware as I and didn’t know that Chink was a racial term. I still don’t feel that sorry for him unlike how Beck feels. That he unintentionally walked over a land mine in the culture war is his fault for not taking the time to understand the culture war to begin with.

  30. Debora

    They didn’t want her to shut up, they were the ones who brought it up. Nahida actually rarely brings politics into normal conversation. They asked her to explain and they kept going for about an hour.

    So what do you have a problem with, Steve – the mentality or the ideology?

    • Steve

      In an ideal world BOTH.

      But I do feel that out of necessity I wished conservatives would adopt more of a Leftist Mindset when it comes to political battle. I don’t want them to riot on the streets for I believe that would indeed backfire on us. But to STAND yeah I wish they would to more of that though I understand the need to “pick your battles”.

      If you don’t learn from your enemy you will constantly be defeated by them. Liberals are the winners. If we don’t adapt some of their tactics to our use that would never change.

      Nahida actually rarely brings politics into normal conversation.

      Yeah, most conservatives are that way.

      Most liberals aren’t. And they say things in a way like that of course everyone in the room would just naturally agree with their statement.

      • Steve

        It would be better if people didn’t feel the need to be politically minded all the time. It would be great to think that you aren’t in kind of a war with your neighbor.

        But I guess I also understand and in a way respect the idea that if you believe something strongly then you should be willing to do whatever it takes to get your beliefs enacted in our society.

      • Debora

        I wished conservatives would adopt more of a Leftist Mindset when it comes to political battle.

        Wait, so assuming I buy into this, which I don’t, are you saying you’re more bothered by the liberal ideology than the liberal “mindset”? Because you want conservatives to adopt it?

      • Steve

        Of course I am more bothered by the ideology because that is what has the most effect.

        The mindset just makes them jerks to be around. I wish we didn’t have to “become them” to defeat them but that’s often the case in any warfare.

      • Debora

        Okay I don’t get this then. I thought you had a problem with the mindset, because you’re always going on about how evil it is. And because you don’t seem as bothered by people you define as not having the mindset. So where would they fall in your ideal world? Would Nahida just not exist?

      • Steve

        Well pushed to it’s extreme I have a problem with the mindset.

        I know that despite me saying “I want to be as ruthless as a Liberal” I will never be that ruthless. They are just too evil.

        Also, I can never imagine me chanting “Kill the cop” even after watching that Stossel video.

        So, yeah, I have my limits. And the Left knows that and takes advantage of that.

      • Steve

        Also I guess it depends on what aspects of the Liberal mentality we are discussing.

        And remember, we are talking about my response to them. If they didn’t adopt such ruthless tactics I wouldn’t be wanting the Conservatives to adopt such ruthless tactics. So I can hate the mentality and still wish that we would adapt some of it ourselves.

  31. Debora

    Actually to be clear they sought Nahida out SPECIFICALLY. They weren’t willing to hear it from anyone else.

  32. Debora

    Saying that someone has an ideology of one and a mindset of another sounds like you’re trying to avoid facing reality.

  33. Lily

    Hey, Steve, I’m real sorry about what I told you. Nahida already forgave me for making things awkward between you, so I guess that leaves you. I really didn’t think it would make you uncomfortable, or that you’d think anything of it, or that you’d mind at all. I guess because I (wrongly) kind of figure that people are flattered? But that was a super irresponsible assumption for me to make. And I need to check that. So yeah, I’m sorry.

  34. Nahida

    I just spent half the day writing three chapters (of a what? a novel? what is this?) instead of an assigned essay on A Midsummer Night’s Dream. My classes are failing to interest me, and it’s alarming. I hope my GPA doesn’t suffer (though I can only blame myself.)

    Steve, has it occurred to you that you’re under the impression liberals talk about politics all the time because even in passing you’re encountering views that conflict with yours? I’m pretty certain that I feel conservatives are twice as confrontational/offensive as they intend to be in actuality, not because they mean to be provocative or aggressive but because I pick things up that simply don’t sit well with me though they mean it in good faith or in passing, and I know to let it pass. Why not? I have no impulsive need to justify myself to anyone. Or what’s more likely, if they know your political views, there’s inevitably going to be a natural friction if only from this awareness.

    The ostensible inferiority complex of some liberals can be downright embarrassing–almost manifesting itself in a quality of adolescence in that it aspires to be anything unlike itself. This character comments on social causes with contrived passion and exudes counterfeited exoticism. But this is a character, a trope and an empty shell into which we fill live complicated human beings, just as is the rigid, hard-jawed, dense conservative. It’s not something you frequently encounter, but more of something you’d sloppily chalk someone up to be if they showed any traces of these traits.

  35. Bill

    More violence from occupy this Spring.

    Oh they say it’s going to be “nonviolent” but from what we have seen already we know that to be a lie.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/its-coming-union-leftist-leaders-announce-99-spring-and-traning-in-places-of-worship/

    By the way, more of this liberal hypocrisy. Aren’t they the ones who want to remove religion from politics. I thought it was supposed to be “separation of church and state” yet look at where they are setting up shop.

    • Nahida

      Stellar readership. Comments are as violent as the violence they renounce.

      How could anyone wish to adopt such despicable tactics without being horrified that it should infect the soundness their ideology or corrupt their virtue? What good is it when essentially pushed by evil?

      I’m utterly unimpressed.

    • Steve

      Debra you are a real lowlife.

      The truth is that most of these are attributed to having a political reason by a biased press but you find out later that there were no politics involved.

      And Bill is right. These are individuals not groups. And not even where you would even consider the fringe. They are that far removed from the movement.

      Whereas Bill Ayers, Van Jones, has lots of support from the Left.

      As for the comments, well some of that was probably Leftists posting to make conservatives look bad. We didn’t see this happen last fall. I doubt we will see it this spring either. And it would of course be a bad move. When the Left turns violent we shouldn’t act violent in response.

      • Nahida

        Steve, will you quit inexplicably calling people lowlives when they challenge you. I don’t understand where this is coming from. I’ve said the same things to you as Debora, even things that were more “controversial” and you used to never resort to it. Did you deliberately wait until I turned 18 and you thought I could handle it to descend to petty insults?

      • Nahida

        I wish you’d stop. You were always impossible but never impolite. Around 16 I even called you an ass once (affectionately, though I’m sure the tone didn’t translate in writing), and you still didn’t retaliate.

        Actually, I called you a jackass really recently during that ridiculous thing with Lily… and you let it go. I can’t predict your reactions. There’s no pattern or reasoning.

      • KelsShels

        Of course he let it go. He was in a position where he could CRUSH you. No one’s THAT heartless.

      • Nahida

        Oh, but I have been.

      • KelsShels

        Yes, but you’re beautiful.

        That makes you sympathetically handicapped.

  36. Nahida

    See that’s a lie. It has predominately come from the Left at least in the US.

    Historically speaking and even now.

    Steve, what you have historically classified as the Left, I have classified as the Right. Things simply don’t work so neatly. They’re intricate, and individuals are complicated and nuanced.

    I am not a patient person. Sometimes I don’t even admire patience as a concept, which I suspect is a terrible sin. I care about people deeply–but only on the basic level that they’re human beings. I’m introverted and dismissive toward strangers until the time comes when I need to make sacrifices for their rights, safety, and wellbeing (regardless of their ideology).

    I’m not patient until I grow attached, when suddenly I find I have all the patience in the world. It’s harbored in depths I wouldn’t think could possibly exist entrapped in limiting human form. But this attachment happens by strange twists of chance or simply circumstance–the weather, the timing, I was younger that day and naive enough for patience, or I was older and wise enough for patience. Some playwright wrote that it was all in the timing.

    I am even less likely now to listen. I’m more dismissive toward strangers. Had we met at a different time, don’t you think I would have coolly left? You would have decided I was whatever you’re falsely under the impression Kelly is. Don’t you believe that you would think I’m something I never was? Don’t you wonder how many you may have missed, and how many you’ve never known?

    • Nahida

      For example, this just happened on my blog:

      *male commenter who frequently searches through the blog despite hating women drops quote about Nadwi (a scholar) calling feminism and invasion of the mind, clearly trying provoke so that a fight breaks out*

      me: We can still use his information, his opinion in the area of feminism is irrelevant [etc etc] what’s your point? You’re pathetic, and wasting your time.

      him: *quoting a hadith about how pride is the rejection of truth and the hatred of people*

      me: You’re being passive aggressive to falsely appear virtuous, looking for an argument by dropping quotes and then pretending to be religious. Go show off your fake piety elsewhere. Banned.

      [banned, so his next comment moves straight to the spam folder without him seeing it]:

      him: InshaAllah we will be holding a lecture at our mosque about ‘feminists’/those who reject truth. Your blog is an invaluable source. Thank for you the other links.

      Yeah, no patience there, or any angelic compassion. I actually laughed coldly. I even hope he trips over a rock. (Not that he falls too hard or anything, though; that’s unwarranted.)

      Lesson: I’m not a snowflake.

      • Nahida

        And you know what the worst part is, Steve? I can’t transfer my rage. I don’t have the capacity to transfer it into actions (I simply don’t have the kind of dark energy to retaliate) no matter how hard I try I can’t get myself to that point. And I have tried so hard. I feel like it’s somehow outside what I’m made of, like if I wanted to fly or something. (Am I making sense?)

        And I can’t transfer my rage into leveling words, because if I wanted to even the ground (eye for an eye!) by preaching that these kinds of men are bad people/reject truth/are damned to hell/everything I’ve ever heard about myself, that they’ve ever said about me… I can’t because I don’t believe that about them, because that is so hateful and isn’t religious at all and the antithesis of Islam.

        And so I’m left with this swelling rage that I just swallow down so that it dies on its own. Or at my angriest I find myself struggling to breathe through screaming sobs. And that’s entirely unhelpful.

      • Season 6

        Hey. You’re amazing.

        Just fyi.

      • KelsShels

        She’s gone.

        I mean, really gone. You can tell when she actually leaves because there’s no goodbye like the other times. xD

  37. Season 6

    New episode on March 5.

  38. Laura

    Dear Nahida,

    As a conservative who drops by here once in a while and witnesses Steve’s antics, I hope you are really gone. Despite what he says, he IS fringe. He’s said some of the most hateful things. And he might say he’s being “ruthless” or whatever like a liberal, but you’ve NEVER come down to his level to deserve it. Not even after he did it first.

    You are far too valuable of a human being to be wasting your time. So please do the world a favor and stop extending your understanding to those who wouldn’t put half the effort to understand you as you do for them.

    Laura

    • Nahida

      Hi Laura. Well I had really gone, until I was informed you’d left me a message. =P How sweet you are. I’m uncertain however, of how you would gather the impression that I would, uhm, expect “half the effort” toward understanding in return? I suppose it might have been my last couple of comments, the ones that sounded like things a friend would say. I’m not sure what suddenly compelled me to confide in him (I imagine the hour must have been late xD) but I’m very clear on what he doesn’t care about. And I do intend to respect everyone’s criteria on the constitution of friendship and who qualifies… regardless of how arbitrary or absurd. I’ve nothing invested, so I assure you there’s no time wasted in expectations. Thanks! xx

      • Lee Ann

        How can you not be angry with him??!!

      • Nahida

        But I am! Furious. Kelly asked him about whether authorities would care about cyber harassment! And started this. But I think I’ll go back to being furious now, because now I just remembered why I was pissed off.

  39. Nahida

    Okay, I’ve got this. (Addressed to anyone present.)

    For the last twenty minutes, I was trying to force my mind to articulate the core differences that I suspect are evident in the framework approaches of liberalism and conservatism, because it is this that propels violent disputes between the sides of this horrendous dichotomy, and without it, issues are really just issues (with no contextual ramifications) that can rationally be dissected, instead of resulting in the recurring phenomenon of extracting different interpretations from the same events.

    (I’m going to try to be fair and even-handed in approaching this.)

    Inevitably this would mean realizing the core of conservatism, which was difficult, because I’m not sure even conservatives know the core of conservatism (or at least don’t reveal that they’re aware of it) and I couldn’t imagine how I would experience an epiphany as a “liberal” (to reduce myself to the left-right hegemony). The dynamics in the United States of the left and right are relatively new and don’t entirely accord with historical assessments in the past—yet there is a strange commonality that I could sense, because I’ve always been at odds with conservatism: I don’t agree with the historical argument of classical conservatism that human rights are derivative of that specific society and are thus meaningless outside the society in which they are manifest. I strongly believe that they are universal (not social), and should have been extended to other civilizations that were encountered and ultimately colonialized.

    Relevant to this, the core of conservatism in the US appears to be that consequences of an implementation are prioritized over our moral or social assessments of it. Conservatives are not as sensitive to method as they are to outcome. If they sense, whether correctly or incorrectly, that something will result in dangerous or disfavorable outcomes, what is right or moral is determined by preventing that result rather than the method by which it is employed. So when there are revolts in Egypt, a conservative isn’t concerned about the right of a people to control their government, but the danger (real or imaginary) that this may or may not pose to the US. And if it poses a danger, that makes it wrong.

    On the contrary, liberals measure the rightness or wrongness of events based on principles of equality and human rights rather than positive or negative outcomes. A conservative may not care whether a rapist is jailed or killed or castrated, as long as the threat is removed, but it matters to a liberal. If a violent criminal is walking around a neighborhood and is shot for the safety of the residents—well, the consequences would have been worse if he hadn’t been killed. It’s black and white. A liberal might claim that the potential criminal hadn’t done anything yet, and his right to walk around cannot be interrupted until his motives are examined.

    So while I saw the mosque in New York as something to which I have a right as an American—a right that should not be interrupted by the actions of foreign terrorists—and believed myself to be extremely patriotic to assert my rights on the principles that founded this country, a conservative would prioritize the image of the nation as the foremost demonstration of patriotism. Similarly, racial profiling is an infringement of rights and therefore wrong on the measurement of liberalism, but a conservative will feel that the method prevents harm and is therefore acceptable. Interpretations of right and wrong are inverted: conservatives care about results, and liberals concern themselves with method.

    But no one falls neatly into either category, and definitely not in different situations. My ideology would dictate that I legalize prostitution because it should be an uninterrupted right, but in this case I’m far more concerned with harm reduction, and legalization would not be effective. I’d also kill the man who came after my hypothetical child, without preoccupying myself with whether or not it is intrinsically right or wrong. And I know conservatives whose moral assessments outweigh their perception of consequences: they wouldn’t care if legalizing prostitution reduced harm in outcome (it doesn’t) if the practice is directly in conflict with their personal morality.

    I’m absolutely SICK with the imaginary division in this country. We’ve failed as a nation to truly examine our thought processes and engage ourselves and each other critically, instead resorting to arguing on the shallow, issue-only peripheral sphere, and about who’s got a bigger cock. (If I see another bogus study about how “liberals/conservative are smarter” I will puke.)

    • Nahida

      And then of course everyone just occupies their own circles and isn’t even AWARE of the inconsistencies of certain positions against their ideology that actually comply with the “opposite” ideology, because they develop to believe that they are so different from the other party, and they believe a certain position is conservative because other conservatives say so or liberal because other liberals say so, which further exacerbates the division and makes it exploitable. And then the terrorists win.

      STEVE! You are letting the terrorists win! *slap*

      • Chris

        …That’s quite the dramatic ending.

      • Steve

        I have always thought that progressives are a bigger threat than the terrorists. We must defeat the enemy within first before we even have a chance of defeating our foreign adversaries.

        9-11 would have never happened if we weren’t so weakened by the Left in the first place. It should have never worked. The whole “Arab looking men learning to fly but not land” thing should have nipped this conspiracy in the bud.

    • Steve

      I find your comparing differences between “Conservative” and “Liberal” thought quite interesting and I will have to think more about it regarding whether it is correct. You say conservatives believe in outcome rather than process. Although I thought it was we who cared about process so I will have to think about that a little more.

      One mistake you made was you talked about classical conservatism whereas “conservatives” in America believe in “Classical Liberalism” (yeah it gets kind of confusing because progressives stole the term “liberalism”)

      Conservatives are more reality based. They are more concerns about the effects than the intentions so perhaps there’s where you get the whole “we don’t believe in process” thing.

      Also I believe that you can probably split conservatives up to at least three categories. Not that a specific conservative might not have more than one of these principles but push comes to shove which dominates. You have those who really believe in the constitution and individual rights. You have those who really believe in law and order and you have those really believe in morals. Again, you might have in a specific conservative a belief in all of these principles but I am talking about when they conflict.

      For example there’s a real fight within conservative circles between those who believe our government needs to be more aggressive on the war on terror and those who believe that government is beginning to infringe too much on individual rights in the name of the war on terror.

    • Steve

      It is not an imaginary division. Now Republican vs Democrat – That’s imaginary. But Left vs Right no that’s a real division within our country.

    • Lily

      Nahida said the word “cock.”

      I didn’t even notice it until I read it the second time. Holy crap.

  40. Mia

    New episode tonight!

    Speaking of Sarah eating bacon and everything. Nahida, when you said your birthday is coming up and you wanted a puppy it’s your 21st birthday, isn’t it?First I thought… wow that’s an important one, but not really for Muslims right. Do you feel like you’re missing some rite of passage by not drinking? And do you think you would have had the same sort of lifestyle if you weren’t Muslim? Like, do you see value in an “Islamic lifestyle” in it’s own right… Or would you have had some wine or been sexually active if you weren’t Muslim?

  41. Season 6

    Episode tonight is called Finders Weepers… no description yet.

  42. Steve

    I don’t agree with the historical argument of classical conservatism that human rights are derivative of that specific society and are thus meaningless outside the society in which they are manifest. I strongly believe that they are universal (not social), and should have been extended to other civilizations that were encountered and ultimately colonialized.

    Actually this is a belief of the LEFT. The whole all morality is relative and one society is just as good as another.

    It’s the Right that believes in Universal Morality. It was stated in our constitution under “unalienable rights”.

    Now how does that play itself out? Well those who we call “neocons” believe that it’s our duty to spread freedom throughout the world and literally we are not safe as a country until all of humanity live under governments that respect “unalienable rights”. Others see this as an unattainable objective and we are better off just leaving other countries to their own domestic policies whether we agree with them or not.

    And I don’t know where it falls in my whole conservative matrix but you are right there are those who believe “AMERICA FIRST” meaning that we as Americans need to do what is in our best interests which at times may mean supporting countries whose domestic policies are contrary to ours.

  43. Casey

    Actually this is a belief of the LEFT. The whole all morality is relative and one society is just as good as another.

    That’s not what she said. (Where is she, for clarification? Is she still here?)

    She said,

    I don’t agree with the historical argument of classical conservatism that human rights are derivative of that specific society and are thus meaningless outside the society in which they are manifest. I strongly believe that they are universal (not social), and should have been extended to other civilizations that were encountered and ultimately colonialized.

    Which means she doesn’t believe you get to treat foreign peoples as any lesser than you’d treat a member of your own society. You don’t get to take their land and resources and treat them like animals, etc. Instead you extend your rights to them, because those rights are universal. That’s why she mentioned colonizing (but she wrote “colonial”izing which isn’t a word… tsk tsk Lit Major.) Basically she was saying that you don’t just start behaving like a murderous prick taking everything you come across for yours just because you’ve left the confines of your “established” society and wandered into the “wilderness.” (ie someone ELSE’S home.) Those rights, and respecting rights, are universal/intrinsic and don’t depend on society. So just because you’ve left YOUR society doesn’t mean you’re free of the humanity that DEVELOPED from that society and can do whatever you want, because those rights aren’t derivative of any society.

    • KelsShels

      No, she’s not here. She’s too busy being pissed off at Rush Limbaugh.

      An hour ago she stormed in and was all like, “After calling me a whore, Limbaugh apologized by saying he was only descending to my level.”

      That wasn’t calm like it reads, by the way. She screamed it. I think she’s the only person I’ve ever met who’s attractive even when she’s screaming.

      • Casey

        Hah =) Well, she’s a very admirable woman. Anyway, I don’t think she was making the claim that US conservatism is a product of European “classical” conservatism… just pointing out similarities in the perceptions of tradition that conservatism has, what with the mentality they (both US and classical conservatism) share in common that things have developed the way they have for a reason – because it works and it’s something that should be upheld.

        When she described her own beliefs they actually sounded like Classical Liberalism.

      • Casey

        I don’t agree with the historical argument of classical conservatism that human rights are derivative of that specific society and are thus meaningless outside the society in which they are manifest.

        Yeah, she’s right. By definition that’s classical conservatism – Edmund Burke, to be exact.

      • Steve

        US Conservatism is a product of “classical liberalism”.

      • Steve

        Limbaugh didn’t call Nahida a whore.

        And he did apologize. More than I would have done in his situation.

        His point was sound.

        http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/Vox-News/2012/0305/Rush-Limbaugh-Rudeness-aside-did-he-have-a-point

        Nahida herself admitted that this was a tactic the Left mostly use.

        And the few times, and I mean few times the Leftist makes an apology, the conservative usually graciously accepts the apology. Again more than I would do in that situation.

        Why should I pay for the sexual activities of someone else as I would if I was a member of that insurance pool.

        Why doesn’t my health care pay for free beer (or root beer for you Nahida)? Oh, and if Pot ever becomes legal – FREE POT FOR EVERYONE! (well, it’s not really free is it as someone always has to pay).

        Sorry, if this woman wants to be a slut and just go around and have sex all over the place she should at least pay her own birth control.

      • Steve

        I like to go skiing.

        I believe my insurance should pay for my Lift Ticket.

      • Lily

        You’re not paying for it. Insurance is. And it’s MEDICAL. Not sexual.

        Your argument doesn’t count anyway, so it doesn’t matter. And neither does Limbaugh’s.

      • Lily

        Also, crying about how the other side is a bunch of meanies isn’t an apology.

      • Steve

        First the left goes “Don’t condemn me for my lifestyle.

        Then the left goes “Approve my lifestyle.”

        And ultimately it’s “Fund my lifestyle.”

      • Nahida

        …And this is what I return to.

        He most certainly did call me a whore.

        Why should I pay for the sexual activities of someone else as I would if I was a member of that insurance pool.

        Because I have to pay for Viagra?

      • Steve

        Nahida if you have to pay for Vigra get a different health plan.

    • Steve

      No one said Conservatives were for colonization. Don’t take a 19th century principle and try to apply it to the 20th and 21st Centuries.

      • KelsShels

        She didn’t say that either. That’s not what she was comparing. At least I don’t think. (Because it doesn’t sound like something she’d say.) She was comparing their views on tradition.

  44. Steve

    Insurance pays? That comes out of YOUR premiums. It doesn’t come out of thin air.

    And birth control isn’t medical in the sense that it’s a condition that “just happens”. The reason you need birth control is because you are having sex.

    Again, I never would have apologized. The Left has said much much worse.

    • Nahida

      Are you kidding me? When I was 10 I needed birth control because my periods were irregular (I was bleeding twice a month, beginning and end) and I had severe, excruciating cramps. This isn’t uncommon for young girls. I needed contraceptive to regulate my periods.

    • Nahida

      I don’t get contraceptives for my irregular menstrual cycle, but Limbaugh gets free Viagra?

      • Gabe

        Why do YOU care? Any man you’re with wouldn’t need Viagra, AND he’d be happy to pay for your contraceptives. Don’t you worry your pretty little head about it.

      • Nahida

        Steve. Steve, as you can clearly see, I can’t talk to you about this. Partly because of this sick asshole above, and partly because if you can’t see what’s wrong with this, what’s wrong with paying for erectile dysfunction but not for ovarian cysts or irregular periods, and you STILL excuse the hateful verbal bigotry on the Right by superficially referring to the Left, I don’t know what I could ever possibly say to make you understand how unfair and unbearably hurtful this is.

        It was a gendered attack. If he called someone the n* word would you tell a black person he wasn’t talking about them? Limbaugh was talking about me. He called me a whore, and you can just stand there and let him do it.

        That’s fine.

      • Casey

        Sweetie, I’m sure Steve didn’t know Viagra is covered by insurance (which I’m sure we can both say is a good thing! =) ) or that birth control has medical purposes like regulating periods. That’s what happens when you don’t let women testify, men are misinformed. Can’t say much about how he couldn’t see that Rush was insulting YOU (I for one think that’s obvious) but I’m sure he understands a little better and doesn’t agree.

      • KelsShels

        She took off.

      • Gabe

        Just telling it like it is.

        Geez, some people are so oversensitive.

        What, you can’t tell a woman she’s hot anymore? Humorless feminazi.

      • Gary

        Limbaugh pays for his own insurance. If that policy includes Viagra then so be it, as he pays the premiums. If someone didn’t want such a policy then they could go to another insurance company or even perhaps the same insurance company that offered another policy. It is called CHOICE.

        But if an University is mandated to include Viagra as part of a mandated health care insurance package that they are mandated to have, then yeah I would be against it. It would be having the other people pay for the recreational “needs” of the male. And it would be a bad joke since you expect that males at that age that they typically in when in college to not need Viagra because if anything they are over sexed at that age without drugs.

        By the way, it only gets worse when the government is the SOLE Insurer. Then all health care choices become that of the government. And when the government controls your health then the government controls everything about you.

  45. Nahida

    Nahida herself admitted that this was a tactic the Left mostly use.

    No. It’s a tactic Rush Limbaugh uses.

    Shut up Gabe! I don’t care about you. I don’t care who you are, or where the hell you came from, or what makes your entitled ass think I should be grateful, or about anything concerning you.

    There’s only one thing I care about, and that is Steve showing me EXACTLY where Sandra Fluke used this tactic, or exactly where I used this tactic, or exactly where EITHER I or Sandra Fluke used this tactic, I want you to show me where I or Miss Sandra Fluke have ever insulted his sexual integrity, or where I or Miss Sandra Fluke have ever said that paying to cure erectile dysfunction makes men whores, or where I have ever said that someone forced to sell their sexual services is wrong or immoral to be used as an insult, or where I have ever said that men don’t DESERVE basic healthcare that ensure their sex organs work, because that is who Limbaugh was talking to–he was talking SPECIFICALLY about Fluke, he was talking SPECIFICALLY about me, he was not addressing the Left or the Right, he was talking SPECIFICALLY about women–women who have irregular periods and ovarian cysts and women who have sex with their husbands, because we are ALL whores.

    He apologized only because advertisers pulled out. What does that make him?

    But you don’t care Steve. I know you wouldn’t have apologized, no need to say it. I mean, I could guess, seeing that you had the same excuse for the gendered attack on me a year ago, that the Left is worse. It doesn’t matter–all you see is Left and Right. You’ll support the Halloween campaign as long as it targets the right side, the “wrong” side–no matter if the message of “don’t be a jerk” should apply to everyone. You don’t care what it says, or how right anything is, as long as you’re winning. It’s all us versus them–it doesn’t matter who’s caught in the crossfires.

    You wanted to call me a slut, didn’t you Steve? You couldn’t, because you hated Kelly more than you hated me. And you couldn’t let her win. But you believe it. Why don’t you just say it, Steve? Why not? We both know I’ll just TAKE it. Besides, I’m just the enemy. Go ahead and say what you believe for once, instead of what you think will take down the other side. I am the other side. Let me help you out.

    • Steve

      Why would I call you a slut when we both know that’s not true?

      You live a very respectable life.

      The problem is that you are among sluts and you want to be accepted. I understand that. America is a very degenerate society. It is sad that the people who are made to feel unusual are those who aren’t engaging in sexual activity with people not their spouse. That should be the norm.

      And you make some good points about how women are treated. I am against it too. I feel that women all too often have to take on the burdens associated with sexual activity. A man who is a slut is called a stud and that is a positive term whereas a woman is denigrated for her sexual behavior. Both should be equally denigrated.

      But this is a specific case. A specific case where a woman got in front of congress and told everyone that a school health care plan should pay for her sexual activity. Yes, he was harsh, and he apologized.

      By the way the word “slut” doesn’t have the same power that the N word has. Perhaps it should be concerned in the same category but it isn’t currently.

      • Steve

        Perhaps it should be considered in the same category. Or at least applied equally to men and woman.

    • Nahida

      I KNOW it’s you! What, Bill just HAPPENS to be agnostic, share the same views on modesty, and read the same “news”?! It’s NEVER enough for you how many people I call out on EITHER SIDE.

      I’m done with this, Steve. You don’t have the courage or respect for honesty at the most basic level of writing under your own name. And you won’t admit what you’ve done, or apologize for it; link your heart out and find someone else to entertain you.

    • Chris

      Wow, it’s like the Nazis complaining that when OTHER people are racist, they don’t get the same reaction.

      Don’t hate women in your policies, and maybe you’ll see different results.

  46. Laura

    Wow. Okay, FINALLY! She’s way better off talking to real conservatives than trying to get through to these nutjobs.

    • KelsShels

      Yeah, you know, I didn’t think she’d stop tolerating it, because she just kept forgiving before… but I think she’s really had enough this time. She just looked at me and said, “I don’t want to cry.” And went to bed. I’ve seen that look on her face before. She only gets it right when she’s burning a bridge.

    • KelsShels

      Well Laura, it looks like the world is in luck. Remember when you said she wasn’t getting any understanding in return and she said she doesn’t do things to expect them in return? Last night she said “I’ve learned the difference between not expecting anything in return, and the other person actively hurting you.”

      But then we also had this conversation…

      Me: How long did you know Bill was Steve?
      Her: (softly) Always.
      Me: What? So Steve’s the one who said you were making a threat?? You mean, despite Snowflake? Why didn’t you say it was Steve?

      Ugh, Nahida’s the writer, not me I’m in theatre. I can’t describe in words the look of deep sorrow and compassion she gave me.

      Me: Okay, so you knew it was him because of the stuff he said that Steve said too?
      Her: I remember everything… people I care about tell me, about themselves. (pause) There was a chocolate he liked. Called Bounty. But he couldn’t find it all the time. I would have gotten some for him, if I’d known him real life. (voice cracks) Well, all I know now is that Limbaugh said if he paid for his partner’s contraceptives, it makes her a whore. Because he would be paying for her to have sex with him. Never mind the hypocrisy about insurance covering erectile dysfunction but not contraceptives for basic healthcare like period regulation or that women can die from ovarian cysts. That’s how Limbaugh sees me, that’s how he sees women, we’re always whores. And Steve agrees.

  47. Steve

    I am not Bill.

    Lots of people read that web site.

    And are you sure that Vigra is covered in health care plans? I would absolutely be against that.

  48. Steve

    Here is what Limbaugh said. I just think if you are going to get mad about something you should know what you are getting mad about.

    • Casey

      No, she got what he said right. He told “Fluke and the rest of you feminazis” to post videos online, because if everyone’s paying for them to have sex that makes them whores. Which effectively means that if Limbaugh paid for his woman’s contraceptives, she’s a whore to him. And that he called HALF THE NATION sluts and prostitutes.

    • Steve

      Gosh, he apologized right after he made that statement.

      He said “I take that back”.

      • Debora

        Steve, THAT WOMAN didn’t even testify about her own sex life. She argued about several medical uses for contraceptives, like how one of her friends had to have an ovary removed because she couldn’t afford contraceptives to treat a cyst. Did you even watch Sandra Fluke’s thing?

        He never apologized. Those are apologies. “Round-heeled” is an old-fashioned way of saying whore. And if his rationale is that men who pay for women’s contraceptives are pimps, then by definition he is calling his own woman a whore (if he pays for her birth control.)

      • Debora

        not apologies*

      • Debora

        Because that’s what he’s reduced it to.

      • Debora

        transcript of Kelly’s video: So Miss Fluke, and the rest of you Feminazis, here’s the deal: if we are going to pay for your contraceptives, and thus pay for you to have sex, we want something for it. … We want you post the videos online so we can all watch.

    • Steve

      The woman wanted the school health plan to include contraceptives. Not for basic healthcare as surely that would be covered somewhere else in the plan, but for sexual activity. And this has nothing to do with “his woman” as surely if he paid for her contraceptives that would be part of their activity. This woman wanted strangers, other students not associated with her activity to pay for her sexual activity.

      I highly doubt the school’s health plan includes vigra. If it did obviously I would be against it. I don’t even think the stuff should be advertised on television.

      Look, it was a joke went wrong. He apologized. But sorry in a way he is right. Why should other students pay because she wants to have sex? If she wants the responsibility of having sex then she should pay (or have her mate pay) for the stuff needed for sex.

      Should the insurance include coverage of any sex toy she wants to use in her sexual activity? Should she get free sex toys?

  49. Steve

    he was talking SPECIFICALLY about women–women who have irregular periods and ovarian cysts and women who have sex with their husbands, because we are ALL whores.

    No, he was talking about THAT WOMAN. That woman who wanted people to pay for her sexual activity.

    I am sure contraceptives for women who have irregular periods and ovarian cysts are already covered in the medical plan.

    • Nahida

      Sandra Fluke did not mention her own sex life. Limbaugh drew that conclusion because he does not know how contraceptives work, and he thinks women take them like men take Viagra (correlating to the frequency of sex). Fluke described a woman she knew who had to have her ovary removed because she could not afford contraceptives to treat an ovarian cyst. Her argument was framed in medical necessities.

      Limbaugh IS talking about me. I’m a woman, Steve! When he uses that word, he is talking about me. When ANY MAN uses that word, he is talking about me. He is talking about his sister, he is talking about his mother, he is talking about his daughter, he is talking about his wife. And most importantly, because my status is NOT derivative, he is talking about all women. When Limbaugh tells feminists who use or have used contraceptives to make sex videos and post them online because he’s paid for those contraceptives and that makes them whores, he is talking about me. And he is talking about any woman for whom he has purchased contraceptives.

      I’m not among sluts—I’m one of them! I don’t care about being “accepted” and I never have. And please hadn’t you lectured me before about how “virginity is a state of mind” or something? Well, THAT’S demonstrably over. You know I’ve thought about, Steve. When do people get married now? Late 30s, early 40s? You don’t think I’ll break before then? Hell, I don’t know! I’m not the type of woman to even want to have sex with someone she isn’t romantically interested in (which does not make me morally superior) but I am definitely the type to seize the moment in the throes of passion in a lapse of resistance. What happens then?

      Meanwhile, as Debora has linked, men get free Viagra because “erectile dysfunction” is considered an actual medical problem. But God forbidden Sandra Fluke suggest such a thing as insurance covering contraceptives for ovarian cysts.

      Covering contraceptives (regardless of what they are for, and because they’re cheaper than pregnancy) will save the country 1.3 billion annually. You can’t “prove” when you’re having irregular periods. They need to take your word for it. Like sleeping pills.

      • Steve

        Again he did apologize.

        And I am sorry that his comments made you so angry, Nahida.

      • Nahida

        After the third day, after consecutive insults, when his advertisers finally started pulling out?

        “I descended to the level” of the women fighting for women’s healthcare is not an apology. To exactly what level did he descend? To the level of the MEN on the Left? Because only men represent any ideology? (And only the sexist ones like himself, apparently.) To Sandra Fluke’s level? He was talking to a woman, he was talking to a woman who NEVER attacked him, and he was talking to a woman whose argument he completely misconstrued, and he was talking to me. I’ve already said we were never at that level, that Sandra Fluke never attacked his sexual integrity, and that neither did I.

        “I’m sorry I’m such a dumbass” is an apology.

        “I shouldn’t have called her a whore and insulted women across America” is an apology.

        The Left (represented by the very victim of his attacks!) is responsible for my behavior is not an apology.

        But his take on contraceptives didn’t affect me: he’s got a Y chromosome–his opinion on women’s reproduction is irrelevant, like every XY on the exclusive health panel in the House hearing at which no one with a uterus was allowed to speak. Even irrespective of that, you know what I was ready to do? Apply my own damn principle about how sexist douchebags aren’t specific to an entire ideology… to Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh, you are dismissed.

        But then you Steve. You happened. You said she was a slut. I wish you weren’t sorry I was angry. I wish you were sorry Limbaugh’s such a prick. I wish you were angry that he told American women to post pornographic videos of themselves online. Because that’s what I’m sorry about. I’m sorry Limbaugh’s a prick, and I’m sorry you weren’t angry.

      • Nahida

        Steve, tell me you’re sorry that he’s a prick, and not that his comments made me angry.

      • KelsShels

        Somehow I can’t imagine Steve using the word ‘prick’…

      • Nahida

        “Nahida, I’m sorry Limbaugh is such a prick. I hope he slips on all the Viagra he was caught returning with from the Dominican Republican. (But not with any injury, because that would be terrible.) Michael Moore is kinda shitty too, for calling Limbaugh a ‘bitch’ like that’s any better for women. He probably thinks he’s some kind of white knight. Also I’m sorry I told you I hope you’re raped because, hey, that was pretty douchey. I hope you have a nice birthday on the 8th and try some red velvet cupcakes since you’ve never had any.”

      • Steve

        I’m sorry I told you I hope you’re raped because, hey, that was pretty douchey. I hope you have a nice birthday on the 8th and try some red velvet cupcakes since you’ve never had any as long as it isn’t Halah.

        By the way I didn’t exactly say I hoped you were raped. I said if you were raped I hope that all the Leftists stab you in the back like they always do. But yeah that was pretty douchey as well so yeah I am sorry.

      • Casey

        The EIGHTH?! You were born the EIGHT?! Nahida, did you know you were born on International Women’s Day?!

        Sorry for the excitement but that is too much of a coincidence. Especially since you’re also a Piscean woman…

        characteristics of Pisces: imaginative, sensitive, selfless, compassionate, idealist, kind, unworldly, intuitive, sympathetic, reserved, adaptable, devoted, unpretentious, mysterious, secretive … “responds to suffering with the utmost sympathy and tact”

        “The Pisces temperament is gentle, romantic, caring, compassionate, and spiritual. Pisces rules the subconscious mind, and so it follows that her dreams are vivid and meaningful, even prophetic. You’ve got quite a glamorous sparkler on your hands–Elizabeth Taylor, Sharon Stone and Cindy Crawford are all dazzling Pisces, and each in their own way reflects the reserved and unpretentious Pisces nature. Your Pisces enchantress almost always has large and beautiful eyes which mirror her feelings openly and she could be prone to cry easily. Soft and ultra-feminine, she will put your needs ahead of hers.”

        You famously make the best religious leaders. I’m sorry that’s far too well-suited!

      • Nahida

        Thank you Steve *kiss*

        Casey, yes I’ve been told. =) I’m a Pisces with a Scorpio rising. Both water signs and rumored to rule spirituality and the subconscious.

        Not sure I believe any of that though. xD

    • Steve

      By the way, I think there are few things more disgusting than sex videos. It’s something I really don’t want to see. So yeah that was pretty douchey of Rush.

  50. Season 6

    Season 6, Episode 8: Sarah feels undervalued by Ann and agrees to work for Darnelly’s Mayor, Glenda Beckford, not realizing that Ann’s college ‘frenemy’ has ulterior motives for hiring her. Meanwhile, Amaar is so consumed with his plans for the new Mosque, he manages to forget Rayyan’s birthday. Baber and Thorne compete for clients at the mosque/church’s last rummage sale.

  51. Season 6

    Hmmm no display

    youtube.com/watch?v=OVBi8I8wy-E

  52. Steve

    Nahida do you think Rush should be arrested for what he said?

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73829.html

    In Canada, Fred would have been arrested a long time ago.

  53. Steve

    I hope you have a nice birthday on the 8th and try some red velvet cupcakes since you’ve never had any as long as it isn’t Halah.

    Nahida, I think I used the wrong word here. I meant to say as long as red velvet cupcakes ISN’T against Islam.

    I get the words confused sometimes. Does Halah mean it is or isn’t approved by Islam?

    • That’s okay. I knew what you meant. I hadn’t bothered correct you because that’s just pedantic. Halaal is permissible; haraam is forbidden.

      • Steve

        Thanks. I always get the two confused.

      • Casey

        Nahida, did you add MORE infromation about yourself to the web? I know you don’t want to back down but that might not be a good response to cyberharassment… I’d seriously worry about things like your site being hacked. It’s VERY common with feminist bloggers. You’ve heard about what happened to Kathy Sierra? And Jill Filipovic?

        Sierra couldn’t leave her house. Filipovic needed THERAPY.

      • Casey

        http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010spring/law/357c/001/internetharassment/anecdotes.html

        “Kathy Sierra, a well-known programmer and game developer, maintained a popular blog on software development called “Creating Passionate Users.” In 2007, anonymous individuals attacked Ms. Sierra on her blog and on two other websites. Posters suggested she deserved to have her throat slit, be suffocated, sexually violated, and hanged. They posted her home address and Social Security number. They posted doctored photographs of Ms. Sierra: one picture featured her with a noose beside her neck; another depicted her screaming while being suffocated by lingerie. After the attacks, Ms. Sierra canceled Speaking engagements and feared leaving her home.”

        Ms. Sierra has not blogged ever since.

        “Anonymous posters targeted NYU law student Jill Filipovic on the social networking site, AutoAdmit. Posters uploaded Ms. Filipovic’s Facebook profile and picture. Posters made clear that they attended school with Ms. Filipovic by noting ‘I sat next to Jill F for an hour.’ After a message thread asked: ‘Any Jill F sightings yet,’ posters responded that they had seen her around school. Anonymous posters threatened Ms. Filipovic with rape: ‘I want to brutally rape that Jill slut’ and ‘she’s a normal sized girl that [I]’d bang violently[,]’ ‘maybe you’d have to kill her afterward.’. . . The harassment negatively affected Ms. Filipovic’s law school studies. After seeing the threatening threads, Ms. Filipovic skipped class, fearing that students in her community would write about her whereabouts.”

      • Nahida

        Mmm? No the gravatar has always been there; I just don’t use it as often here.

        Casey, of course I’m concerned. Of course I wake up every morning wondering what rape/death threats are waiting for me in my inbox, wondering how many of those types of comments are in the moderation queue, sighing in relief when I open messages and they’re just lovely comments from friends, tensing up whenever I receive a call on my phone from a number I don’t recognize because what if they somehow acquired my number, losing my mind over which battles to choose, asking myself whether it’s worth it. If I have to I’ll wipe myself clean off the public internet. But you can’t show when you’re frightened.

        Besides, those are very high profile women. I know it’s also happened to much, much lesser known women… but I’m willing to take the chance.

      • Steve

        I believe in anonymity on the Internet for this very reason. It can get dangerous when one doesn’t do that.

      • Casey

        If I have to I’ll wipe myself clean off the public internet. But you can’t show when you’re frightened.

        Things is, I don’t WANT you to have to do that, and no one does. What your site offers on Islam is something we can find NO WHERE else (at least no where on the internet) and no one can represent or argue for those exegesis as well as you.

        So please, PLEASE, be careful. I know you have connections to high profile feminist bloggers because they’ve asked you to guest write for them. Contact them for tips on how to deal with mass harassment and make sure the site (and your info) is secure.

      • Nahida

        Steve, people can do these things because of anonymity. I don’t understand it. I wrote anonymously on the Internet until TFF, when I started writing under my real name, and I never had the urge to succumb to violent assholery knowing my identity was hidden and I could get away with it. I hadn’t acted any differently than I would in real life. But I guess some people need to have their reputations on the line to act like decent human beings. Anonymity makes way for the most volatile of behaviors because there are no consequences and no need to take responsibility.

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