Season 2 – Repeat – Swimming Upstream

Please check out the Post from Last Season for discussions on this Episode.

Season 1 – Episode 4 – Swimming Upstream

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22 Comments

Filed under Season 2 - Repeat

22 responses to “Season 2 – Repeat – Swimming Upstream

  1. Steve

    I wonder when the homosexual issue is going to come up again. It has been part of the show from the beginning but always brought up carefully.

    It may be cliche but Muslims are correct when they say that Western Society is decadent. So how do they live among the decadence without becoming an accomplice to it. And since they are now part of Canadian society what role if any should Muslims play in trying to make the society less decadent?

    This was briefly touched upon on the episode about the gay “marriage”. Unfortunately in that episode Fatima allowed herself to become an accomplice in the performance of an abomination because she didn’t want her competition to get a catering job.

    Living in Western society means that Muslims often have to associate with people who behave in ways totally against Islam. Can these associations be friendly? Is it really possible to Hate the Sin but Love the Sinner? Or at least tolerate the sinner to the point you can have cordial interactions with them.

  2. Greg

    Re: Homosexuals.

    I have a better idea:

    Stop believing that a certain segment of human society is evil because your religion tells you that must must think that way. Learn to see beyond the old edicts and prejudice, the hate and discrimination from a time of great ignorance. The lifeguard in LMOTP is a normal and to my eyes very likable person. He is friendly, witty, cares for the people he teaches and probably loves his partner in the same way any man or woman loves their spouse. He doesn’t take offense at what is inherently discriminatory behaviour from Rayyan and Fatima. In many ways he is a much better human being than a lot of the Muslims in LMOTP.

    There will never be peace in the world as long as there is a religion that ostracizes people who do not follow their faith or who have what is now known to be a natural human attribute. Muslims are quick to tell the world when they are being discriminated against. What is the world to think when it is the Muslims who are doing the discriminating?

    To clarify: I am not homosexual. I am a secular humanist who believes that this life is the only one we have and there is no afterlife so we had better treat each other with as much respect and understanding as possible. There is no room in this world for blind prejudice based upon old, false outdated teachings.

  3. asiila

    greg:

    there is a difference between what Islam says and what many Muslims do. Islam does not teach to ostracize others of different faith…if you really studied it, you’d realize that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is a continuation of the 125,000 prophets that God has sent to all groups of people for guidance. The only difference being his dispensation and lessons are for the entire world and not limited to a tribe or area or particular sect of people.

    In fact, all the major prophets mentioned (25 main ones) like Musa (moses) and Issa (jesus) are considered Muslims too. By definition: those who submit to the will of God are Muslim!

    People, however, have messed up the messages left by these morally perfect men by misinterpreting, changing, adding and subtracting from their teachings; to include some Muslims! Muslims are supposed to be inviting others to our way with ‘gentle preaching and demonstrations’ and by living peacefully among others. That’s how Islam spread in Malaysia, and other places. Obviously, you can’t ‘force’ anyone to believe…

    So, having said that…homosexuals are not considered inherently evil, except for the ones that are. the issue is that homosexuality is a sin— always has and always will be. There is no doubt that its practice will spread as are other immoral behaviors in these times…

    There is also the problematic issue of ‘validating’ same sex as some kind of ‘normal variation’ that should be openly accepted by the society– which western ‘secular’ society is so intent on doing. this is spreading corruption, which Islam also condemns. Surely, murder is a higher crime than gay sex, but many folks, especially those who don’t believe in such values, are guilty of more than just one moral crime. Truth is: All is NOT fair in love and war…

    In reality, what folks do in the privacy of their own homes is their business and between them and God—and Islam forbids us spying on others in that way. Unfortunately, nowadays what should go on in private is celebrated, demonstrated, bandied for all to see; whether they want to or not, so naturally we are told to speak out against such behavior (both hetero and homo).We also don’t believe that ALL gays are born that way—although ‘some’ can be.

    In essence, on the day of judgement, there will be no way no one can say they were not warned of God’s condemnation of homosexual sex.

    asiila

  4. Greg

    Asiila,

    I’m sorry you feel that way. You have unfortunately very succinctly illustrated the blind hate and ignorance that is inherent in Islam as well as many other religions in the modern age.

    I despair that humans continue to have belief systems that divide people into “us” and “them”. Conflicts, and discrimination are passed on from generation to generation just because these groups feel they are uniquely entitled to a particular area of land or feel uncomfortable about certain types of human relationships or just feel that they are the special “chosen” people of God. What is worse is that children are taught to hate based upon these beliefs.

    I don’t care if you are Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, or atheist. I don’t care if you’re black, white, yellow, brown or any combination of the above. I don’t care if you are filthy rich or dirt poor. I don’t care if you are straight, gay , bi or choose to live in complete isolation. Simply put, I don’t judge people by what they are, but who they are as a human being.

    Now tell me, which stands a better chance of producing long-term harmony within the human race: Following a belief system that inherently says: “These people are inferior because they do not believe what we do” and “these people are sinning because they love each other in a way we don’t accept” or following a path that ignores all personal beliefs, sexual orientations and races and just encourages all people to contribute to the betterment of the world without harm to others, even if there is no God or afterlife.

  5. asiila

    Greetings Greg:

    well, all i can say is complain to God…maybe ask him on Judgement Day why gay sex is sinful sex (btw, why does loving someone have to end up in some kind of sexual relationship? men ‘loving’ each other is a good thing, women loving other wome is also good in that sense…).
    ….the fact is in every monotheistic, and most non-monotheistic religions (ancient and modern), homosexual sex is considered deviant behavior.

    you can love the homo and hate the sin—hopefully trying to get them to see the error of their ways…in fact, like i said, we are NOT to even know they are gay by spying..in essence, it’s their business, unless they make it public business. then something must be done to stop the promotion of its ‘normalization.’

    Muslims very much believe in the concept of enjoining the right and forbidding the wrong.but there’s a problem: you and new age thinking doesn’t believe that homosexual sex is wrong…. i don’t know what to do to convince you otherwise. It probably can’t be done.

    Again, there will come a time when you’ll know, very clearly of what has been conveyed time and again. Hadith say that in the last days wrong will be considered right, and right will be considered wrong…

    Blind hate, ignorance? Who is guilty of that; Me, or you? This has nothing to do with being ‘chosen.’ talk about muddying the waters….

    The topic is homosexuality and the fact that Islam says its wrong (and Christianity and Judaism, etc.). You don’t believe it is, and that is your right. In fact, one thing you are given as a human being is the freewill to live your life as you wish. If you have no constraints–no conscious– do what you want. But know, you can’t claim you didn’t know about these warnings when you face God.

    The best way for humans to get along is to recognize that we will alway agree to disagree and have different cultures and viewpoints and must share this world. Hopefully we can also not allow greed and ‘the bottom line’ be the determination of behavior; nor our lusts. But you know what else? Mankind never has and never will be a fully peaceful creature. The angels, in fact, asked why God was about to make a thing that shed so much blood; we can look at history and the present day to see our propensity for violence and hatred. We can’t seem to help encroaching on each other.

    There’s really no way around this. Muslims might ‘accept’ homosexuality because it exists, we do not and hopefully WILL NOT, however, have to accept it as no longer sinful. Folks will do what they want however, and that is reality too.

    As it says in suratul Kafiroon: lakum deynukum, waliya deen. You have your way, and I have mine…that seems to be about as peaceful as we can be…

    asiila

  6. josh

    Asiila, faith and religion regardless of denomination are strong and powerful things in people’s lives. They give us guidance and answers to bring comfort in our lives and help us find happiness. That is something i truly admire and respect in people. But what greg is saying is from a secular point of view, as he says, and i must agree with. Faith and belief differs from person to person, each has their own moral compass and relation to god. It is a personal issue that should be kept personal, as long as it does not harm another(as oppose to people who would think its ok to assault, rape, steal from another). Homosexuality is something that comes from a persons love and affections for another of the same sex, and homosexual relationships come from to people who share that love between themselves consentingly. You may not have these desires yourself but seeing others who do does not force it on you. “trying to get them to see the error of their ways” is trying to force your ideas on another. You can live your life happily without worrying over what other people choose to do, especially when that intention is just to love and find happiness, what all people are looking for. Some people say “its harmful to our children”, but if you raise your children in a strong loving household, you should have more influence than the ideas of society. Thats how homosexuality, and even racism, became socially acceptable. People quietly raised their children with the belief that such bigotry was wrong, and changed the social standard over time. So don’t take it as an attack on your faith or culture, take it as another person’s private choice with which you have no business, whether they are public about it or not. This applies to more than just homosexuality but many other issues. When judgment day comes, any loving god would judge a person by their intentions, and love is the purest intention of all.

  7. Nahida

    “To clarify: I am not homosexual. I am a secular humanist who believes that this life is the only one we have and there is no afterlife so we had better treat each other with as much respect and understanding as possible. There is no room in this world for blind prejudice based upon old, false outdated teachings.”

    Gotta love that irony.

  8. Nahida

    “In many ways he is a much better human being than a lot of the Muslims in LMOTP.”

    Only Baber ever spoke out against him. What’s this about him being “a much better human being” than a “lot” of them?

    You have no right to judge someone on how good of a human being they are.

    Secular humanist. Yeah right.

  9. Nahida

    “So don’t take it as an attack on your faith or culture, take it as another person’s private choice with which you have no business, whether they are public about it or not.”

    Josh, that’s what you’re already supposed to do in Islam.

    Muslims can’t treat homosexuals any differently because of them being homosexuals. Only God can judge them. There’s just a belief that it’s wrong–but it can’t be acted upon in Islam.

  10. Nahida

    I’m an advocate of gay rights. It gets on my nerves when people think Islam is against homosexuals–it’s against homosexuality, NOT homosexuals.

    What someone does in their personal life is their personal life. It should not affect their rights or treatment as a citizen or a human being.

    Greg, you should reconsider calling yourself a secular humanist if you’re so quick to judge people and so quick to claim that these are “false, outdated” teachings.

  11. Matt

    Homosexuality is wrong. Those who try to force people to accept homosexuality are the ones being the fascists here.

  12. Lesia

    (Homosexuality is wrong.)

    In whose book? Not mine.

    Now I’ve tried very hard to keep *my* religion out of this since I don’t really mesh with probably anyone else’s but here goes. In my belief system gays are thought of as sacred and known as “Two Spirits”. It was considered a great honor for a tribal leader to have as one of his wives. They were spiritual leaders and healers in the clans/tribes.

    I am not gay but had I been I would have brought great honor to my family and people.

    (Those who try to force people to accept homosexuality are the ones being the fascists here.)

    We need to get you a dictionary so you can look up the real meaning of some of the words you use like: fascists.

    You ARE the fascist here but in some ways you can’t help it. You’ve been bred and coddled to ignore your own fascist ways.

    Your people tried to FORCE their beliefs on my people for centuries. You even went as far as making my language & religion illegal, took our own children to be raised in mission schools, forced us off our own land then denied us the right to own the crappy land your forced us on to and even denied us the right to be citizens of the US until the middle of the 20th century. Let’s not forget the Army tossing us smallpox infected blankets or using villages full of women and children while the men were out hunting as target practice, taking our horses and killing off the buffalo. The “government diet” we were forced to live on has given us the highest rate of diabetes of any group of people in the world with the Pima, very south-eastern Native Americas, as #1 with in our ranks. Thats just the tip of the ice burg!

    Yours is NOT the *only* religion in the world, and as I have already pointed out, homosexuality is NOT a “sin” in every religion. This country is a land of Laws not religious text and since the Laws finds NO crime in homosexuality then it is only a *fascist* who would want to supersede Law with religious text that only has meaning for its believers.

  13. Nahida

    “Homosexuality is wrong. Those who try to force people to accept homosexuality are the ones being the fascists here.”

    That is a fallacy.

  14. Nahida

    Matt I don’t know what reasons you have for believing homosexuality is wrong. Even in Islam, which *you* probably consider the most backward religion in the world, it’s discouraged but to be left unjudged. Any Muslim treating someone as an inferior human being because he or she is gay is doing something oppressive. That’s against Islam.

    And like I said, your very statement is a fallacy.

  15. Nahida

    This all reminds me Dumbledore. ❤

  16. Lesia

    (This all reminds me Dumbledore. <3)

    Wasn’t that insane! I could NOT believe the people that were upset/outraged over a FICTIONAL character being gay.

  17. Susan

    Yay Dumbledore! :3

  18. Nahida

    I KNOW! It didn’t matter to me that he was gay.

    i LOVE dumbledore!

    Susan and I are part of Dumbledore’s Army. =)

    I didn’t know you were Native American Lesia that’s really interesting. What part of the US is your family from?

  19. Lesia

    I’m old enough to have been a member of the Order of the Phoenix.

    Originally the Carolinas/Cumberland Gap area but migrated to Western Kentucky area pre Trail of Tears. Part of the family passed for white and part of the family ended up in Indian Territory/Oklahoma post Trail of Tears. We were among the VERY few families that stayed connected despite the government and many of us have returned to the areas near where we once had land.

  20. Nahida

    How lucky lol I’m not even old enough to vote. xD Not for a year and three weeks.

    I read a book called Trail of Tears. It was very informative. I’m glad your family was able to stay connected. There’s nothing more painful than families torn apart.

  21. Nahida

    I wish the years would hurry up and MOVE.

  22. Lesia

    Wow Nahida, the way you conduct yourself I’d have thought you were older. Kudos! ; )

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