Same-Sex Marriage

Reverend McGee is asked to perform a same-sex marriage for the ‘friend of Dorothy’ swim instructor. He is initially hesitant but much to the dismay of Fred Tupper, Fatima and Baber, he agrees to do the ceremony. The aforementioned characters are up in arms at the ‘abomination’. 

According to Islam, Nikah is a ‘contract’ between a man and a woman and therefore same-sex marriage is frowned upon absolutely not tolerated. Legally however, same-sex marriages can be perfomed in 8 out of the 10 all the provinces in Canada and a few countries in Europe as well as South Africa.

What is your community’s stance on same-sex marriage? What’s your stance? Are they different from your parents?

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98 Comments

Filed under Episode 7

98 responses to “Same-Sex Marriage

  1. Stephanie

    I must correct you about marriage in Canada: since July 2005 same-sex marriage has been legal everywhere in Canada.

    Internationally, same-sex marriage became legal in South Africa a few months ago.

  2. Zaraf

    “According to Islam, Nikah is a ‘contract’ between a man and a woman and therefore same-sex marriage is frowned upon.”

    Frowned upon? Those words a bit light for the weight of this “crime” in Islam. Frowned upon is something that is generally not forbidden, but encouraged to be avoided…like smoking cigarettes for example.

    Homosexuality is something that is denounced by Islam entirely. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is an abomination, and there is NO compromise with it within the bounds of Islam.

    Bu regardless of this well known fact, you’ll still find “Gay Muslim” groups. Hah, talk about a walking oxymoron.

    http://www.imaan.org.uk/

    You know the beginning of the end has arrived when people can create and justify stuff like this.

  3. Sara

    he Holy Qur’an states: “And remember Lut when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as no people in creation ever committed before you? Verily, you practise your lusts on men in preference to women. You are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” (Surah Al-A’araaf, 81)

    God’s punishment that descended upon this deviant nation was extremely severe. Their cities were turned upside down, and rains of rock and stone lashed them, until it piled into mounds around them. Elsewhere it is mentioned that a dreadful sound, like a scream was part of their punishment

  4. Lilith

    Really sara, does that mean that lesbians are alright? Honestly. I’m a big fan of the show, and I thought this may be the best episode yet. How ironic that the muslim and christian fundamentalist are united by their mutual hated and intolerance. But really, you can’t dislike Baber in the show, you see him question and stuggle with faith (in relation to his daughter). That is the whole point of the show, that people are all the same. I think (and hope) that people interested in this show are ready to abandon the idea that any religion other then their own is, in the best case senerio, incorrect or misguided (a milder, but still harmful prejudice), or in the worst case, any other religion is a threat or evil and must be fought (fundamentalism, which I will never ever understand). Maybe these individuals, of many different religions, can evolve past dogmatic, literal interpretations of historical texts and wake up to the fact that every human is a spiritual being and how they express that spirituality (within an organized religious tradition or not), is valid and should be accepted. And once you accept that no one religion is any ‘better’ than any other, then you have to question other statements in the world’s holy books and consider the fact that maybe its also not a good thing to hate / discriminate against / marginilize / or even believe someone is ‘misguided’ or needs to be ‘saved’ because they happen to attracted to and love someone of the same gender.

  5. Zaraf

    Lilith,
    Then while you’re at it, you can just dilute everyone into the same soupy mix and say that “We’re ALL the same!” So while you’re progressing towards your idealized equality, see if you’re able to pull along the rich who now need to prop up the poor, and basically end up at the same level as everyone else. Hey, it doesn’t matter that you got that better job cause we’re all the same now, and everyone needs to be supported. Woohoo! We’re Communist now!

    Just as what I said sounds ridiculous (in the physical material sense), what you said sounds ridiculous in the spiritual sense. For someone who has no belief in God, or in any judgment to be passed, etc, what difference does religion make? Of course it makes no difference. Just as someone who could care less about hockey doesn’t care if some star player is traded off to another team, or what the scores are, etc.

    But now, if people believe in God, and they believe in a judgment that will come to pass…then how can you assume everyone into the same boat when they are NOT equal? Is the person who says God exists, and worships Him alone, and focuses his/her life in seeking God’s pleasure equal to the person who rejects the existence of God entirely? I think not. So if this is something that we believe, and we wish to save those who do not understand this and bring them to understanding and enlightenment, then what is wrong with “saving the misguided”?

    Are you so selfish enough that you care nothing about the lives or what will happen to others, and simply satisfy yourself and be done with it? Well, if that is the case, then you might have difficulty understanding why Islam aims to spread the message of truth to “save” people…because honestly, we care about ourselves, but we care about others even more, because that is the attitude that pleases God the most.

    So before you can pass off your “why are people discriminating on the basis of religion”, make sure the person you are delivering your message to feels the same way about religion, otherwise, it is completely flawed.

    Go and tell a teacher “Why are you discriminating against people on the basis of grades? How can that so-called ‘bad student’ be misguided, and why do you feel the need to ‘save’ him? Its not a good thing to discriminate against people based on their intelligence, so therefore, you should eliminate all exams, and everyone should be given the same grade. Only then will you come to love and understand that even the bad student is human.”

    Yeah, I know…lolz

  6. “Homosexuality is something that is denounced by Islam entirely. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is an abomination, and there is NO compromise with it within the bounds of Islam.”

    Actually, there are alternative interpretations. Your refusal to acknowledge them does not mean they don’t exist.

  7. Zaraf

    “Actually, there are alternative interpretations. Your refusal to acknowledge them does not mean they don’t exist.”

    Yes, they DO exist, but then they are NOT part of Islam. They may claim they are, but they are not. Plain and simple. There are some “sects” of “Islam” that say they can have premarital intimate relations such as fornication, and drink alcohol, etc… But that’s all those are…deviations from the truth. They couldn’t follow the WHOLE truth, and they couldn’t give it up entirely either, so they made up their own derivative of it, which is weaker and less than the complete Islam.

    I was interested in seeing some of the justifications these “homosexual Muslims” had with what they are doing…since it is pretty blatantly clear in Islam that homosexuality is forbidden. So I look and I was quite appalled with what I found. Here is what they claim:

    “In the Quran, the act of anal sex (sodomy) is forbidden, but homosexuality isn’t explicitly forbidden. Therefore, you can be homosexual as long as you don’t have anal sex.”

    Wow. Talk about pulling the wool over peoples’ eyes. I suppose they missed the part about where “something that leads to something forbidden is also forbidden.” Meaning, an act that leads to the worse act is also forbidden. An example is dating. Dating (in the Western sense) is forbidden in Islam because it leads to premarital intimacy. One could argue that dating was never explicitly said to be forbidden, but the fact that it LEADS to something that IS explicitly forbidden condemns it as well. And really, I don’t want to have to think about this, but I doubt too many “gay Muslim men” would be pious enough to hold themselves back from the “sodomy”…thus, homosexuality is something that LEADS to the real evil.

    They claim that “they can’t help it”. Well, I’m not a homosexual, so I can’t say whether or not that is accurate, but I wouldn’t accept that 100%. Even so, let’s assume that they are correct, and it wasn’t “their fault” or “they were born like that”, etc etc. Since when is it ok to start flaunting around your homosexuality as something to be proud of? So let’s assume that it is a part of you, but it is something that is shameful…and instead of showing “gay pride”, you should try and restrain yourself. Yes, that sounds tough, and it probably is. But God never burdens anyone with a test that they cannot handle. Which is why the excuse “It was too much for me to bear” will never work on the Day of Judgment”.

    As much as I care to see, this whole “homosexual Muslim” thing just looks like another “sect”, or at least the beginnings of one.

    Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said “Judaism will divide up into 71 sect, Christianity into 72 sect, and Islam into 73 sects. And all of the sect will be in Hellfire except for one from each group.” His companions asked him, “How can we know that we’re following the correct path?”, He responded with “Those of each group who followed the original message that was given to each of the prophets (Moses, Jesus and Muhammed), and not things that people have created afterwards.”

    Those who care not to believe…well, give yourself max 100 years, and we’ll see who was right 🙂

  8. Nathan

    This is why I am not totally against Muslims in Western Society. Perhaps they will help to clean things up a bit for there is no doubt that Western Society has become very decadent.

    The Muslims must realize though that the same “tolerance” Reverend McGee had to allow a Mosque at his church also makes him tolerant when it comes to the perverts in our society.

    Point is that while Muslims might think the Left is an ally, in the end they are really your enemy.

  9. Nathan

    Zaraf said:

    “But regardless of this well known fact, you’ll still find “Gay Muslim” groups. Hah, talk about a walking oxymoron.”

    The Left thinks it can do to Islam what it did to Christianity. These “Gay Muslim” groups is part of that process.

    Reverend McGee isn’t a real Christian as he seems to compromise his faith at every opportunity. That comes from growing up in Canadian society.

  10. Nathan

    The Anglicans might break up over the very issue of homosexuality.

    http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5585

    The Bishop of Maryland, Robert Ihloff, has written a stinging “Dear Justice” letter to the Archbishop of West Africa and Bishop of Accra, the Most Reverend Justice O. Akrofi, uninviting him from celebrating Eucharist at Palm Sunday services in his diocese, following a Eucharist boycott by the Primate at the meeting of archbishops in Dar es Salaam, recently.

    The snub by Ihloff intensifies the sharp differences and highlights the ecclesiastical culture wars now being fought publicly and openly between Western heterodox Episcopal bishops and orthodox Global South bishops and archbishops.

    http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5583

    http://www.ippmedia.com/ipp/guardian/2007/02/24/85055.html

    The Anglican Church in Africa could break away later this year over the raging controversy on homosexuality and same-sex marriages.

    The Africans want to bar same sex marriages but the Anglican Church of Canada has developed a service for same-sex unions.

    A communiqué issued at the end of the five-day gathering in Tanzania said the U.S. Episcopal Church had been given until Sept. 30 to pledge to end the blessing of same-sex unions and the appointment of bishops who are openly homosexual.

    The Anglican Church of Canada was neither mentioned in the communiqué nor discussed in the meetings, although it previously has drawn severe criticism because of Bishop Michael Ingham of B.C.’s Anglican Diocese of New Westminster decision to authorize same-sex blessings in his Greater Vancouver diocese.

  11. Bill

    Muslims might see the “Reverend McGee’s” of the West as being their allies, but in the long run they are their most deadly of foes.

    Here’s a word that you must always remember – incrementism. What that word means is that the Left works slowly over time. A compromise here a compromise there but always in the same direction. Pretty soon they have worked their poison within you and you find yourself practically destroyed.

    It is how the Left has almost destroyed Christianity. It is how the Left will destroy Islam if you let them. These “Gay Muslim” groups are only the beginning.

    Trust someone whose society has practically been destroyed by the Left. They are “the enemy within” who has brought down Western Civilization.

  12. Zaraf

    So by “the Left” do you guys mean “left wing ideologies”? So called “progress”and “modernization”? If so, then I completely agree with both Nathan and Bill. Fact is that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has said that you should NEVER compromise on the basics of Islam. The things that are set in stone are not compromised. You don’t compromise the five daily prayers, fasting during Ramadan, zakat, prohibition of alcohol, prohibition of extramarital relations, etc.

    Right after Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) several Arab tribes that were Muslim broke away and apostated. The elected caliph (leader of the Muslim world) waged wars against these tribes. Some tribes came to him and said “We accept everything in Islam except zakat (kind of like alms giving). We used to give our zakat to Muhammed (pbuh), but we will not give it to you.”

    Those people who rejected only one of the five pillars of Islam were fought against as if they had rejected Islam entirely. Hence, you can’t compromise these things.

  13. Jake

    “a compromise here and a compromise there…pretty soon they have worked their poison within you…”

    Many people with leftist ideologies do what they do in the absolute faith that they are doing good works. Many churches, including Christian churches, teach that God made different people to love differently, and to supress or deny one’s sexuality is to deny God’s will.

    What do we do in a society where people of good faith have conflicting beliefs, supported by their communities and churches, of what is right? In Canada we try for the most part to keep the government secular, and maximize the freedom of each citizen to live according to his or her faith, or lack of it, and I think this is wise.

    Referring to Western Civilization as being in “decline” is entirely a matter of opinion. You’ve all heard Muslim societies around the world being referred to in the popular media as “medieval” and “backward” — do you think this is true? It’s certainly a widely-held belief.

    I’m very happy to live in a country where I am free to live to the dictates of my own understanding of right and wrong, and where I am not forced by civil laws to do what I think is wrong.

    I was fascinated by the quote about Islam, Christianity and Judaism breaking into sects. (By the way, Christianity has already broken into far more than 72 sects in the USA alone.) But who is to say which path is the original? I’m sure Sunni and Shia leaders would have a few words on that topic.

  14. FZ

    It seems the right shares more values with but hates Muslims while the right accepts Muslims at face value but wants to change them.

  15. FZ

    That second right I typed should have been left.

  16. Ned

    Well, I’m a queer woman from Pakistan, and an ex-Muslim (used to be an orthodox Muslim, wore Hijab for over four years when I was a teenager). I’m now spiritual-but-not-religious and probably have much more in common with atheists than with religious people ;-). I’m actually intending to emigrate to Canada soon primarily because I’m in a queer relationship and want legal protection for this relationship.

    This is a very good show and I’ve recommended it to a number of people because of its sense of humour and the way it battles stereotypes of Islam and Muslim culture, though it also highlights many of the reasons why I gave up on religion in the first place — because most religions are full of ridiculous and irrational dogmas that get in the way of people’s self-actualization and spiritual growth. The atheist philosopher Daniel Dennett aptly notes that most religious people don’t actually believe in a living God, they just believe in beliefs about God, and deify those beliefs.

    This is the difference between translative and transformative spirituality. In conventional, translative spirituality, one deifies one’s beliefs and practices. The mystic, however, practices divinity — a completely different (and much more exacting) ballgame.

    Ironic, indeed, that this episode showed the Muslims and Christians united in their hatred and intolerance, though to the astute observer this could be a much-needed cue: man-made dogmas and rigid formulas have nothing to do with the experience of the Divine Reality.

  17. Ned

    I should add though that Islam has had its non-dogmatic (and fairly heretical) stream of thought in the form of Sufism. But most conventional Muslims have no idea what Rumi, Ibn al-Arabi and others like them were on about.

    Come to think of it, I’d like to see how this show might handle Sufism, the path of love. It would be challenging to represent Sufism for what it truly is: a path beyond any fixed ideology.

    A lover doesn’t figure the odds.
    He figures he came clean from God as a gift without a reason,
    and so he gives without cause or calculation or limit.
    A conventionally religious person behaves a certain way to achieve salvation.
    A lover gambles everything – the self, the circle around the zero.
    He or she cuts and throws it all away.
    This is beyond any religion.
    Lovers do not require from God any proof or any text.
    Nor do they knock on the door to make sure this is the right street.
    They run and they run.
    — Rumi

  18. The Left has been successful in Canada and almost successful in America. But the interesting thing is that whenever it has been put to a vote in the United States it almost always fails.

    Homosexuality clearly goes against the Bible. For Rev. McGee to perform a ceremony clearly goes against Biblical teachings.

    Rev. McGee doesn’t seem much like a Christian leader but he does seem to represent the type of Christian leader we find in the West today.

    It is interesting that the homosexuality issue has become so prominent in this show. Especially since Muslims on television has been called the “new gays” by Mark Steyn meaning just like sitcoms put likable gay characters in their shows in the 1990s they are putting likable Muslim characters on their shows today.

    http://www.macleans.ca/culture/entertainment/article.jsp?content=20070205_140131_140131

  19. Sorry I didn’t finish the first sentence.

    I meant to type “The Left has been successful in Canada and almost successful in America in getting gay marriage legitimatized”.

  20. The Right and the Muslims share common concerns when it comes to what is happening within society. It is too bad that issues of religion and foreign affairs keep them apart.

  21. Bruce

    I think that having this whole gay storyline proves that this show isn’t about Muslims or about rural Canada.

    It is about what the Urban Left in Canada thinks rural Canada is like and what they want Muslims to become.

    Again, a show made by the Canadian Left for the Canadian Left with little regard for authenticity because in the end authenticity isn’t their objective. Their objective is to promote their own agenda upon Muslims as well as Canada in general.

    Liberal Urbanite Canada talking to Liberal Urbanite Canada. Anyone who thinks this is going to reflect how Muslims really are in Canada is going to be disappointed.

    The only reason the Left has allied themselves with Muslims is because the Left hates Western Civilization more than the Muslims do. They have been at war particularly with Christianity for quite some time now and sees the Muslims as an ally in that.

    But the Left and the Muslims couldn’t be further apart on social issues. So how does the Left see these differences play themselves out? I guess they think that in the process of destroying Christianity they can “tame” Islam.

    I for one am not so much against Islam as long as the Muslims don’t force unreasonable concessions out of the rest of society to accommodate their way of life. And of course as long as we can ensure that they don’t present a security threat. I understand that Muslims could provide a healthy dose of morality back into society.

    Muslims as well as the rest of us have to live in a society that has Hallie Berry, Homosexuals, and Hip Hop music that sings about “hoes” and “pimps”. Surely Muslims can unite with the Right in the understanding that those elements in the society must be fought against.

  22. Max

    From what I could tell Reverend McGee wasn’t initially hesitant to perform a same-sex marriage. He was overjoyed that he could yet again perform the role of rebel, just like he did when he allowed the Mosque in the church.

    Also, Reverend McGee isn’t Catholic so where’s his wife?

  23. Max

    Does Fatima own the restaurant she serves at?

    If she does, couldn’t they have the Mosque there?

  24. Canadian Christian

    Just because Reverend McGee can be married doesn’t mean he has to be married.

  25. Max

    Maybe Fred is right about him.

  26. Ann

    With behaviour like we saw in this episode from Reverend McGee does he have any doubt why fewer and fewer people are coming to his church?

  27. Ann

    In another episode Reverend McGee and the Iman went to a movie together that Hallie Berry was in. Reverend McGee seemed to be excited about that.

    Still, McGee could be bi-sexual.

    Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that every movie Hallie Berry is in she is nude and/or has sex in the film.

    So, how can the Iman justify going to such a movie? McGee too of course, but especially the Iman.

  28. Kurt

    Wow, Homosexuals AND Muslims in one episode.

    That must have been a CBC wet dream!

    This is such an Leftist Agenda driven show.

    It is too bad that the CBC doesn’t allow for more diversity in its programming. And when I mean diversity I mean shows that promote the Fred Tupper viewpoint (as it really is not how they misrepresent it in this show).

    A CBC that represent all viewpoints of Canadian society would have shows that promote the Right’s agenda instead of only shows that are Leftist propeganda.

  29. Nancy

    My greatest disappointment is that they really didn’t make an attempt to make Fred funny in the episode. Calling the Muslims terrorists just didn’t seem like him.

    He would have been more clever like calling them a death worshiping cult, or a bunch of moon god worshiping Pagans or something like that.

    But I guess he was pretty good at suggesting that McGee was a homo.

    I think Fred would have in his show asked why didn’t the Iman take a more public stance on opposing what McGee was doing.

  30. Nancy

    By asking why the Iman didn’t take a more public stance on what McGee was doing he could have killed two birds with one stone.

  31. Jake

    What’s all this nonsense about The Left and The Right? It’s just people, lots of people with lots of different opinions. It’s not two big clubs. And I’m sorry, saying that “the left hates western civilization” is just silly. They *are* a part of western civilization. Everyone in all parts of the political spectrum pushes for what they believe is best for society. We can disagree about what that ‘best’ is, but to ascribe evil motives to others for doing what they think is right is small-minded.

    (And yes, the Christian Bible does outlaw homosexuality. It also outlaws a whole bunch of other things that modern Christians have no problem ignoring, such as wearing fabrics made with mixed fibers, shaving the corners of your beard, the entire kosher law…)

  32. Ted

    The Left does hate Western Civilization despite the fact like you say they are part of Western Civilization and would not even be allowed to do what they do if it wasn’t for Western Civilization.

    If they ever do fully destroy Western Civilization they will learn how much they really depended on what they so hated.

    And while yeah, there are lots of different people with lots of different opinions most of the time you can categorize them as being in one of two groups. Especially the Left as it is far more united than the Right.

  33. Ted

    There are two big clubs (groups) and while you can find disagreements within the groups at times, most of the time they are pretty united. The Left in particular have been trying to destroy traditional values in the West for about 100 years or so now. And they have been quite successful in doing just that.

  34. Jake

    Yes, traditional values are such a good thing. Let’s go back to owning women as property, keeping slaves, oh — and all you divorced people out there? Get back to your abusive first wives/husbands. Oh — and technology? Throw it all away. The Church — the ultimate Right in Europe — was totally against the Enlightenment and tried to supress science in general. No marrying someone unless they’re the same colour and creed and level of wealth.

    Oh, and Christians can celebrate Christmas in the traditional way — by going out, gambling and getting drunk. That was how it was celebrated until the last few hundred years. That’s why the Puritans outlawed it.

    It was the Left that changed each of these nasty things, with the right saying how terrible it was, and how it was leading to the downfall of civilization. I’ve also heard the exact same words said about the positive portrayal of Muslims on television.

    I’m not saying I always agree with leftist issues — I’m reserve the right to have complex opinions. But demonization, I maintain, is just silly.

  35. ps

    I really liked what the Rev. said – that marrying two gay men didn’t make him happy, but it seemed like the right thing to do.

    I kind of feel that way too. Truth be told, I am not too happy about the fact that gay people are now allowed to wed. But at the same time, I believe it is the right thing to do. I say ‘yes’ to equal rights.

  36. Ann

    Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.

    And regarding the church in England, our forefathers were against that.

    Conservatives, for a lack of a better term has been the ones who have made society better over the years. Time and time again they have been proven right.

    Liberals, are not only wrong – they are evil.

  37. Ann

    Gays have equal rights to marry.

    They can marry just like everyone else.

    Just like everyone else they can marry someone of the opposite sex.

    This has nothing to do with “equal rights”. It has everything to do with socially legitimatizing immoral behavior.

  38. Ann

    Give me 1950s American values any day.

    http://www.stevevaus.com/lyrics/blackandwhite_vm.html

    Black and White
    You could hardly see for all the snow,
    Spread the rabbit ears as far as they go
    Pull a chair up to the TV set,
    “Good night David, Good night Chet”
    Dependin’ on the channel you tuned
    You got Rob and Laura or Ward and June
    It felt so good, felt so right
    Life looked better in black and white

    I Love Lucy, The Real McCoys
    Dennis the Menace, the Cleaver boys
    Rawhide, Gunsmoke, Wagon Train
    Superman, Lois Lane
    Father Knows Best, Patty Duke
    Rin Tin Tin and Lassie too
    Donna Reed on Thursday night
    Life looked better in black and white

    CHORUS: I wanna go back to black and white
    Everything always turned out right
    Simple people, simple lives
    Good guys always won the fights
    Now nothin’s the way it seems
    In living color or on the screen
    I wanna go back to black and white

    In God they trusted, in bed they slept
    A promise made was a promise kept
    They never cussed or broke their vows
    They’d never make the network now
    But if I could I’d rather be, in a TV town in 63
    It felt so good, felt so right
    Life looked better in black and white

    CHORUS

    I’d trade all the channels on the satellite, If I could just turn back the clock tonight
    To when everybody knew wrong from right, life was better in black and white

  39. Ann

    Give me 1950s values any day over what we have today.

  40. Ann

    You could hardly see for all the snow,
    Spread the rabbit ears as far as they go
    Pull a chair up to the TV set,
    “Good night David, Good night Chet”
    Dependin’ on the channel you tuned
    You got Rob and Laura or Ward and June
    It felt so good, felt so right
    Life looked better in black and white

    I Love Lucy, The Real McCoys
    Dennis the Menace, the Cleaver boys
    Rawhide, Gunsmoke, Wagon Train
    Superman, Lois Lane
    Father Knows Best, Patty Duke
    Rin Tin Tin and Lassie too
    Donna Reed on Thursday night
    Life looked better in black and white

    CHORUS: I wanna go back to black and white
    Everything always turned out right
    Simple people, simple lives
    Good guys always won the fights
    Now nothin’s the way it seems
    In living color or on the screen
    I wanna go back to black and white

    In God they trusted, in bed they slept
    A promise made was a promise kept
    They never cussed or broke their vows
    They’d never make the network now
    But if I could I’d rather be, in a TV town in 63
    It felt so good, felt so right
    Life looked better in black and white

    CHORUS

    I’d trade all the channels on the satellite, If I could just turn back the clock tonight
    To when everybody knew wrong from right, life was better in black and white

  41. Canadian Christian

    Just because Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, doesn’t mean you can equate him with being conservative or traditionalist. The ideology of the US Republican Party at the time of Abraham Lincoln was for change and modernization.

  42. John

    Canadian Christian is correct. At the time of slavery, the Republicans were considered the party of the left and the Democrats were the party of the right. They switched sides somewhere around the end of the 1800s or the early 1900s.

    And Ann, if you *really* want the values of the 1950s, then shouldn’t you be quiet and let the men talk about these issues? Maybe you could go fix us a snack while we do. Don’t forget, the right for women to express opinions (or to vote, for that matter) are a result of pressure from the evil, evil Left.

  43. Dudes, you really have no clue what is going on around you, do you?

    You need to listen to Michael Savage for a week.

    http://streamingradioguide.com/radio-show.php?show=328

  44. Ann, you should rent the film “Pleasantville”!

  45. rstn

    I will avoid addressing same sex unions directly; but, I would like to reflect on some of the wisdom I took from how the characters responded to the issue.

    First, in a civilized society I do not believe it appropriate drag an individual’s sex life into public. No good can come from discussing somebody else’s private life. I like how neither the Imam or Priest go there.

    Second, in order for any society to hold together and avoid the strife and turmoil that ruins us all– we sometimes have to make certain sacrifices in the name of unity. Civil war of any kind, including a culture war, does not work in any religion’s favor.

    But what about the need to fight for your values, to stand by truth of one’s convictions? It’s a difficult balance to make. We all have our own answers. I like how the Imam and Priest at least struggled to find a balance. Babur and the hick fellow took the extremist position. It’s not that their views were right or wrong; it’s that they did not take the time to consider how their actions might effect the community as a whole. This is something that many would-be activists should stop and consider.

    Third, I like how the episode brought up the idea of holy (0r unholy) unions. In other words, politics makes strange bedfellows. What was it that brought Barbur and the Hick together? An understanding of the common values between the two faiths, similarity in personality or mentality, or something else? Will they continue to be friends in mutual love or mutual hate?

    Very nice episode. 🙂

  46. Ann

    Hey “Jake” and “John” and “Canadian Christian”

    Here is just one of many, many, many reasons the so called “Left” deserve to be called Evil.

    Black Children in Africa are dying because the Left will not allow them the technology to go beyond cooking food by wood stove (which in a hut fills the hut with smoke causing many children to die before five and lowing the lives of those who make it past five to live a much shorter lifespan).

    You are a murderer and a racist.

    Oh, and as the film that you can go to by going to that url below proves, a liar.

    http://greatwhitelie.notlong.com

    And of course the source of most if the evil of the world today.

    Yeah, the Left, they are the real enemy. Of Muslims, of Christians, of us all.

    Oh, and your promotion (its more than just tolerance) of homosexuality causes death by helping in the spread of AIDS.

  47. Ann

    So called Liberalism (really socialism) is the greatest cause of death and destruction on the Planet Earth today.

    rstn, I like how the episode brought up the idea of holy (0r unholy) unions. In other words, politics makes strange bedfellows. What is it that brings Islamofacism and the Left together?

    After all they are totally opposites when it comes to values. The only thing that seems to unite them is their hate of “Western Civilization” in general and their hatred of Christianity in specific.

  48. Ann

    somewheresunshine I probably understand the movie “Pleasantville” lots better than you do, and how it all relates to Gramsci.

    And now you think the same thing that you did to “Pleasantville” (American post war society) you are going to do to the Muslims.

    Well, I think they are going to surprise you. I think they are going to be a tougher nut to crack. Your Cultural Marxism, your Critical Theory won’t find as much “success” with them as it did with us.

  49. Ann

    Actually, isn’t “Little Mosque” just a CBC attempt to “Pleasantville” Islamic society within Canada?

    I was surprised that they threw in the Gay Issue so early into the series. I am just waiting for the Gay Muslim episode they are sure to throw in next year.

  50. Ann

    somewheresunshine,

    When I want to shock my conservative friends, I tell them that the Marxists won the Cold War.

    They are dismayed that I would say something like that. They point the the fall of the Berlin Wall, the end of the Soviet Union, they are gone they will tell me.

    Yeah, I would reply. The Marxist-Leninists, the Marxist-Stalinists, and those type of Marxists all lost the Cold War, but the winners were the Gramsican Marxists. The winners were the Cultural Marxists.

    See back in the day there were different forms of Marxism all competing against each other. The Marxist Stalinists and those types thought that the way that Marxism could win was through a violent revolution as one typically thinks of revolutions.

    But Gramsci, he thought such an open attack was doomed to failure. He saw a slower but in the end more effective way to socialism. That was by tearing down the culture of the country.

    At first it looks like the Revolutionary Marxists were going to win, but as we know now they didn’t. But in the end Gramcisian Marxism (the tortoise in the tortoise and hare analogy) won.

    Here is a good website that discusses all of that.

    http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html

    So now you think that since it worked on the West it will work on Islam. Well I think you will be surprised.

    Pleasantvistan is going to be a lot tougher than you think!

    Things weren’t perfect back then. Issues especially that associated with racism needed to be worked out. But all and all it was much better back then than it is now.

    Things were much better in Black and White!

  51. Gene

    Interesting discussion.

    Here is something I found on the subject of Gramsci.

    —–

    Eight decades ago, the chief theorist of the Italian Communist Party, Antonio Gramsci, returned from the Soviet Union. He was convinced by then that Lenin had been wrong. The Communists were not going to be successful in overturning the West through proletarian mobilization. The culture of the West was too resistant, too Christian. He drew up a new plan: to undermine the West’s culture, setting it up for Communist revolution.

    Gramsci in fact abandoned Marxism. Marx had identified the mode of production as the bedrock foundation of society: the substructure. Culture, philosophy, and politics were part of the superstructure. Gramsci rejected this analysis, though not openly. He placed culture as the substructure, resting on religion.


    Thus the origin of the “Culture War” in the west, or at very least one of the key moments in the origin of the movement.

    So, can a “Culture War” on Islam be as effective as the Culture War against Westnern Christianity has been?

    Well I believe people will look back to “Little Mosque” as an early experiment in this effort.

  52. Gene

    I bet the CBC is going to have Layla (Baber’s daughter) become a lesbian.

    I am not trying to be funny here. It would really fit in with the Gramscian goals the CBC has for this program.

    First of course Baber is going to be very upset and of course it won’t make the other members of the Mosque too happy either.

    But at the end, because Baber loves her daughter even though he doesn’t agree with her lifestyle he is the one who welcomes her into the tepidly supportive Mosque.

    Using the “Pleasantville” analogy adding just a little bit more “colour” into the back and white world of the Mercy Mosque.

    Will it work on Canadian Muslims like it’s intended, I don’t think so.

    The one reason Critical Theory worked on the west was due the baby boom generation all reaching their teenage years (rebellious years) at once, overwhelming and dominating the popular culture in general of the 1960s. You don’t see such a dynamics within Islam currently.

  53. I so wish I could find a better place to send people for this article.

    I totally 100 Percent oppose the web pages I found this on. But THIS ARTICLE I have enough understanding regarding Gramsci, the Frankfurt School, Cultural Marxism, et al to know that THIS ARTICLE is more or less correct on the subject of “Pleasantville”.

    Again, I am recommending this ARTICLE not this site.

    http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7370

    The question of whether the CBC could be successful in “Deconstructing Islam” with shows like “Little Mosque” for me depends on an understanding on why it was possible to deconstruct Middle Class North American society. I believe for Critical Theory to find success there must be an initial “surrender” that comes from the society that it is been tried upon.

    For middle class North American society the initial surrender came from a war-weary generation who just wanted to come home and mind its own business, and avoid conflict as much as possible. So when the social conflict came up it that generation tended to yield. You combine that with a generation that dwarfed all other of the generations in that society at the time coming into their teenage years which are years of rebellion at the same time, and you have a mix all ready for widespread social change.

    It just needed the “people with a plan” to guide it the direction they wanted. That is where the people of the “Frankfurt School” and like minded people come in.

    But they wouldn’t have found such success if those dynamics mentioned above didn’t exist. In fact these people had been act the “cultural war” game from at least the 1930s on and only started becoming successful around the late 1950s on as the elements were coming into place.

    I don’t see the dynamics for the initial surrender to be in place for Islam. At least not currently. That is why I don’t see any attempt by Leftists forces such as the CBC to do to Islam to what they did to us (or to say it more succinctly to “Deconstruct Islam” to meet with much success.

    One quote from the article I particularly like.

    http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7370

    George visits Bud in his jail cell. He asks his son:

    “What happened? One minute, everything’s fine, the next… What went wrong?”

    “Nothing went wrong. People change,” Bud explains.

    “People change?”

    “Yeah! People change.”

    “Can they change back?”

    “I don’t know. I think it’s harder,” Bud says with a smirk.

    And in point of fact, once civilizational values have been destroyed, it is difficult to build them up again.

  54. Max

    I find the whole Leftist/Islamofacist unholy alliance thing quite fascinating.

    What I see is that the alliance is indeed based on the shared hatred for Christian based Western society as well as shared foreign policy objectives (though shared they are shared for different reasons).

    But in this, the Left is performing a dangerous dance. For after all, they couldn’t be further apart on social issues, so by helping Radical Islam they seem to be in the end quite literally cutting their own necks.

    Are they being short sighted? Can’t they see what seems to be the obvious? Perhaps their success in the 20th century destroying the West makes them arrogantly think they can do the same for Islam in the 21st. If that is the case I have to agree with those above in stating that I believe with Islam they are going to it much more difficult to accomplish than it was against the Western Middle Class.

    I really don’t understand where the Left sees this unholy alliance leading to.

  55. Jake

    The “Left” has a hatred for Christianity? Half of the US population votes Democrat, and the vast majority of them are Christian. Most Canadians are Christian, too, and as a nation Canadians would be considered far left of the US in general. There are many Christian churches whose polices in general would be considered “left”. The policies of the Pope in Rome would be considered leftist by some of the people on this list, I’m sure, from what I’ve read.

    Equating Christian=Right is basically dishonest. If you mean “my own particular denomination of Christianity”, then say so. You can’t claim the whole religion. There’s a lot of Christian churches that support and perform same-sex marriages, for example, and I’m sure they pray for your souls as much as you pray for theirs.

    And being a leftist, I even support Ann’s right to express her opinions, as distasteful as I find them. This is in spite of knowing that even the Bible has injunctions against women speaking their minds.

  56. Max

    There’s the self loathing Jew. Perhaps there are also self loathing Christians.

    The truth is that many Christian churches are totally devoid of Christianity. They totally lack a Christian theology, leaving in it shell a shallow message that just amounts to “be nice to each other”.

    Perhaps that is one of the main reasons Christianity is in the decline.

  57. Max

    By the way, how many African children died because of you during the time it took to compose your post?

  58. Max

    The Old Pope John Paul II was quite conservative. Having lived under communism he was a strong anti communist.

    The New Pope is quite conservative as well.

    Now some of the Bishops and Priests that’s another story. There are some pretty conservative Bishops and Priests but there are also all too many who are Leftist extremists.

    By the way, I believe the current Pope is just what the Catholic Church needs. John Paul II was great in visiting places and evanaglizing but I feel that in his zeal for travel and evanaglizing he probably didn’t pay too much attention to what was going on internally within the church.

    This Pope isn’t as publically visable as the last but what I think he is good at is cleaning up the internal matters within the church. Both public evanaglizing and working internally are important skills for Popes to have but I fear that since what our current Pope does is outside the public focus, his longterm contribution to the Church might be underappreciated even though in the end it might be even greater than that of John Paul II.

  59. Canadian Christian

    Yes, Pope John Paul II was conservative in his views relating to doctrines of the Roman Catholic church (divorce, birth control, male only priesthood, abortion, same sex marriage).

    But he held liberal views on other social issues (he disapproved of capital punishment, libertarianism, laissez-faire economics, and promoted debt forgiveness).

  60. Max

    Pope John Paul lived under Communism so he knew how bad it was.

    He supported capitalism but of course as a religious leader he stressed how important it was for INDIVIDUALS to help those who are less fortunate.

    I don’t remember what his position on debt forgiveness. As for libertarianism I would think he would be against it but if anything that would be a conservative position.

    Capital Punishment. Yeah in that ONE area he sided with the Left.

  61. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think I’d want to be an African American, an Asian American, a Native American, or a Communist in your “Black and White” era.

    I could probably handle being a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant man. Maybe. Definitely not a woman.

    By the way, thank you, Ann, for informing me of how superior your intelligence is compared to mine. Now I know my place exactly, just like a good little woman.

  62. Max

    You Certainly don’t want to be a Communist that’s for sure as I would lock you up for treason.

    But as for the rest, I said that was something that needed changing.

    But you threw out the Baby with the Bath Water as the saying goes.

  63. Max

    Racism was the one thing that was wrong with the 1950s. But apart from that life was much better then.

  64. Ann

    Civil Rights for Minorities, more rights for women, they are all good things that were lacking in the 1950s to some extent. Especially the Civil Rights for minorities. Racism in many places in in the West especially the American South was very bad.

    But that didn’t mean that all of Western Culture and ethics had to be destroyed.

    As for the Commies, yeah, that’s treason and should have been fought very hard against.

  65. Ann

    Would I want America to go totally back to those days?

    No.

    Were those days in most ways much better than now?

    Oh, yeah.

  66. Alice

    You were the one who mentioned “Pleasantville” to Ann, somewheresunshine.

    I guess she just happened to know more about what that movie was really about than you did.

    What was your point regarding the movie? Did you see what happened to the town because of Jennifer’s actions as a good thing?

  67. Sue

    Many Christians accept homosexuals into their church. I don’ t think that will ever happen (in real life as Gene might be right about them turning Baber’s Daughter into a leisbian in the show so that the Mosque can come to accept homosexuality). I doubt homosexuals will ever find themselves a spot in Mosques much less will Islam accept homosexual “marriage” (see the quotes between marriage that means that homosexual “marriage ” although many would use that term, it isn’t correct as marriage is the union between one male human and one female human both entrying the union under their own free will at the age of consent).

  68. Alice

    For the Left, Muslim tolerance of Homosexuality is the most important objective of the show.

  69. Alice

    The Iman really should have spoke out more against the so called wedding at the church.

    It doesn’t seem like he speaks out much about any moral issue unless it has to do with someone dating the woman he likes.

  70. ps

    Let’s just live here and now.

    There are things we might like about the past, and there are things we might now.

    How about just being tolerant of the differences?

  71. Ann

    I try to live in the here and now but I use the past to understand how we got to the here and now.

    But as for the here and now, the Left has been very effective in their Culture War against Western Society. Can that be reversed? I don’t know, but I will certainly try as well as try to stop anymore victories that the Left is trying to achieve in the Culture War.

    Gay “Marriage” (not really marriage) is an attack upon the keystone of society. Already, as was pointed out in the show marriage has been very harmed by people frequently getting divorces. It is an institution that needs to be strengthen, not weaken further.

    Make no mistake, the Left’s attacks on Western Society has been very effective and now we are seeing the Death of the West. Perhaps it is too late to reverse the damage, but even if that is the case I am going to try to with all I have in me.

  72. Ann

    On issues of Civil Rights, things are much better now. Still though if you look at black illegitimacy rates, they were quite a bit less in the 1950s. So while without a doubt on issues of discrimination and financial prosperty blacks are better off now, the Black family was much stronger back then.

  73. Mattie

    Practice run. . . haven’t tried this before! 🙂

  74. Ali

    Like Zaraf said, no ifs, ands, or buts. The Quran has made this too clear to avoid. Look at what God did to the people of Lot. What makes you think that he will spare America? We can just as likely end up a Dead Sea like they did. A couple of bad weather phenomena and we’re there. I feel bad for “gay” muslims. But hey, if you can be true to your faith in such circumstances, imagine the bounty in the hereafter. What’s seventy years of ‘dunya’ compared to an eternity in paradise? We all have to make sacrifices, so don’t boo-hoo.

  75. Mattie

    OK, I have a few things to say here.

    For one, this is quite the string that has unfolded–wow! I’m impressed with all of the political, historical, and religious discussion.

    Nonetheless, I’d like to depart briefly from the politics (left v. right) and the history to talk a bit about my personal experiences and about religion and “Little Mosque.” People can decide for themselves whether or not to listen to what I have to say. I won’t be offended or angry either way.

    I am a bit like Ned regarding spirituality, only I was raised Catholic instead. While I believe strongly in God and often look to God for support, I have trouble affiliating myself fully with any religion. One problem with religions in general is that while they unite many people, they also, necessarily, separate the resulting groups from each other. It seems ironic that the issue that unites Baber and Joe in this episode of “Little Mosque” is their intolerance of same-sex marriage.

    I consider myself to be a bisexual, and I’ll tell you why: quite frankly, I have a lot of difficulty in understanding how people can care so much about the gender of the person that he or she is most in love with. There are only two people I’ve truly, with all of my heart, fallen in love with over the years, and you know what? One was a man, and the other was a woman. Remarkably, I noticed certain commonalities in their personas. They both like cheering people up, and both of them are at about my intellectual level, patient, energetic (but not hyper), and so on. I was not falling in love with their private parts or the possibility of whether or not I could manufacture babies through them, but rather whether or not I could relate to them.

    I will not say that Islam is tolerant towards homosexuality because, well, from what I know about it, it isn’t. If I recall correctly, in particular, if a man is penetrated anally, then he is punished more severely than if he is penetrating. (Maybe because he’s assuming the female (i.e. opposite sex’s) role, in a sense?) This is also not to say that I do not honor the religion of Islam or that I have no Muslim friends. (In fact, I have completely abstained from alcohol for quite some time and intend to do so indefinitely. I think that that rule, in particular, is a wonderful one for the health of individuals and of a society as a whole.)

    Nonetheless, I am not a Muslim and, hence, I do not feel obligated to conduct myself according to Islam unless I am in an officially Muslim environment. Likewise, however, it seems that I am unable to conduct myself in a Christian manner–or at least as I have been told recently. Jesus told us to love our enemies, which is something I am afraid we seem not to have been doing here. I say Salaam unto all people–left or right–and plead for one thing: empathy.

    Each of you who strongly believes that homosexuality is immoral and should be stiffled, I have this to say to you: suppose you were a homosexual. What would you do? Would you willingly get married to a person of the opposite sex? Would you try to force yourself to love that person in a way that you don’t? I know that I certainly have platonic relationships with many people despite my being open to non-platonic relationships from both sides, and I would not want to force myself into a marriage with any of them. If a person is a homosexual, then he or she must deal with that regarding any relationship with the opposite sex. The problem is that if you force the love, then it may not be as enjoyable for you and your spouse. For those of you who really care about the well-being of those around you, this raises a question: is this really the most thoughtful way to handle romance? If your religion does not permit divorce, then someone of the opposite sex is married to you for life and will possibly be unable to satisfy you sexually regardless of what he or she does. Imagine the feelings of hopelessness that result from a situation like that.

    Of course, there is also the alternative of simply abstaining from sex and romance entirely–for life. Would you be willing to do that? Think about it. Would you be willing never to have sex during your entire life? As is evident from Max’s remark above, this is simply unfathomable in the minds of many. Let’s face it; you have to get married to SOMEONE as long as you’re not a priest, right? (And as it is, we’ve seen many priests struggle with their complete suppression of sexuality.) Hence the desire on the part of many homosexuals to get married.

    The question is, what happens when a homosexual CANNOT get married to another person of the same sex under law? Then he or she sees no point in wasting time in developing deep personal relationships. He or she might resort to going to gay bars and parties, having unprotected sex with several complete strangers each week, and basically playing Russian roulette with AIDS and other STD’s. In other words, allowing gay couples to wed may very well DECREASE the incidence of AIDS.

    I remember listening to the Randi Rhodes show on Air America radio something like a year ago, and Randi Rhodes was mentioning an interesting statistic: in Massachusetts, the only state to date that had legalized gay marriage, the divorce rate was the lowest in the nation. That’s correct. The divorces DECREASED once the gay marriage was allowed. Why? Because fewer people forced themselves into marriages that they didn’t dare refuse at first.

    In the case of Islam, homosexuality raises some particularly interesting questions. If many women wear their Hijabs in part for a sense of protection against lusty men, then would a gay man be a welcome relief? For once, a woman would not need to fear the possibility of the man’s trying to rape her. What’s more, what about lesbianism? With the apparent divisions between the sexes (be it at Mosque, through romantic interactions, or even schooling, as is evident in the case of Baber’s daughter’s going off to an Islamic school in Michigan), wouldn’t it be much easier to develop such close bonds with other women?

    It seems troubling to me that in this episode of “Little Mosque,” Fatima agrees to cater the gay wedding because she knows she’ll get money out of it. Not only is she saying that her money is more important than her faith, but ultimately that it’s also more important than her friendship with Johnny, since due to her beliefs about homosexuality, despite her liking him as a person, she simply cannot accept him fully for who he is because he wants a gay marriage.

    Just some food (maybe curry?) for thought, I guess. Have fun!

  76. Alice

    Mattie said:

    “There are only two people I’ve truly, with all of my heart, fallen in love with over the years, and you know what? One was a man, and the other was a woman.”

    You know just because you love someone it doesn’t mean you have to have sex with them. You could love them like a brother and sister without having sex.

    Mattie said:

    “Of course, there is also the alternative of simply abstaining from sex and romance entirely–for life. Would you be willing to do that? Think about it. Would you be willing never to have sex during your entire life.”

    Yes I would. Sex isn’t the be all and end all of everything.

    Mattie said:

    “Let’s face it; you have to get married to SOMEONE as long as you’re not a priest, right? ”

    Wrong, I know lots of people who never got married.

    Mattie said:

    “… but ultimately that it’s also more important than her friendship with Johnny, since due to her beliefs about homosexuality, despite her liking him as a person, she simply cannot accept him fully for who he is because he wants a gay marriage.”

    You have no idea of the concept of “hating the sin and loving the sinner”. Are you saying that since Fatima is against homosexuality she can’t like Johnny as a person?

  77. Ali

    Fatima agreed to cater the wedding because her cooking was challenged by the competition, not because of anything else. She does obviously like Johnny, but it doesn’t mean she accepts him.

    Note about reducing AIDS and other STD’s, statistics will show you that the majority of gay married couples are not monogamous. I haven’t seen the numbers, but I have worked downtown and my gay clients (singles, couples, and spouses) will agree with me.

    There are many more indicators that I am unfortunately not at liberty to discuss. Though, I have known muslims who have chosen selibacy over homosexuality in the cases where they were not able to marry a person of the opposite sex. I also know MANY straight people who have chosen to stay single for ever.

  78. Ali

    Fatima agreed to cater the wedding because her cooking was challenged by the competition, not because of anything else. She does obviously like Johnny, but it doesn’t mean she accepts him.

    Note about reducing AIDS and other STD’s, statistics will show you that the majority of gay married couples are not monogamous. I haven’t seen the numbers, but I have worked downtown and my gay clients (singles, couples, and spouses) will agree with me.

    There are many more indicators that I am unfortunately not at liberty to discuss. Though, I have known muslims who have chosen selibacy over homosexuality in the cases where they were not able to marry a person of the opposite sex. I also know MANY straight people who have chosen to stay single for ever.

  79. Mattie

    Alice said:

    “You know just because you love someone it doesn’t mean you have to have sex with them. You could love them like a brother and sister without having sex.”

    OK, here is where I must admit that I am rather young, and, consequently, I cannot relate to what it was like in the days of “black and white” so cherished by Ann.

    As I was growing up, a most frustrating trend was arising socially among children. Whereas there used to be the phrases “like,” “love,” and “in love with,” presumably used to describe people we cared about, cared about very deeply, and felt romantic and/or sexual attraction to, there was now only one word used: “like.” That meant that if you “liked” someone, then you were interested in that person romantically and/or sexually. Maybe I was just around some strange people, or maybe it was a somewhat universal phenomenon in the very early 1990s–I’m not sure. But perhaps you can see the enormous jump there between no interest in a person at any level and being head over heels. Maybe that made it more difficult for me–and for other people my age–to understand the concept of actually loving someone in a non-romantic way. I still have difficulty grasping non-romantic love (while I might still LIKE some people A LOT–without romance–which means, I guess, that they didn’t get me completely regarding terminology!). It’s simply a concept that was never really introduced to me.

    So Alice, you’re absolutely correct that one can love someone without romantic interest, only this concept has become elusive to me and, perhaps, some other people, too, in this modern world.

    Alice said:

    “Sex isn’t the be all and end all of everything.”

    Actually, this is true for some individuals, and I feel ashamed in leaving them out of my analysis. There are indeed asexuals in the world–people who have no interest sexually in anyone at all. Asexuals still can and do feel emotional attachment to some people, and many are affectionate with some individuals. There is nothing wrong with anyone for being asexual. Perhaps you are an asexual, Alice! Now, even if this is true, and if you are married, then it is very possible that you love and care deeply for your spouse (and I’m sure you do, considering your earlier comment about brotherly and sisterly love! :))

    Regarding the “everyone needs to get married issue,” I’d like to clarify that I don’t personally agree with that idea, but rather was reinforcing what someone said earlier on this blog. I definitely agree that someone can be happy by him or herself.

    Alice said:

    “You have no idea of the concept of “hating the sin and loving the sinner”. Are you saying that since Fatima is against homosexuality she can’t like Johnny as a person?”

    Johnny is a homosexual. Fatima is against homosexuality. Hence Fatima cannot truthfully like Johnny as a person–as the WHOLE person. If you are married to a banker and hold disdain for bankers, then do you really love your spouse? Johnny’s sexual orientation is a part of who he is, just as banking is a part of who a banker is. Even if you like everything else about that banker, you cannot truthfully like him entirely, and likewise, Fatima cannot truly like Johnny entirely.

    One other thing: could you please explain to me WHY homosexuality is a sin? I’ve never been able to understand that. And just what exactly is a sin, anyway?

    Ali said:

    “She does obviously like Johnny, but it doesn’t mean she accepts him.”

    How can one like someone without accepting that person?

    Ali said:

    “Note about reducing AIDS and other STD’s, statistics will show you that the majority of gay married couples are not monogamous.”

    Ali, do you know what the statistics say about the portion of heterosexual couples who are monogamous? I am curious. What if the heterosexual couples are also not particularly monogamous in general? What would this say about marriage and fidelity? Is this an increasing problem in our society? If so, then why are these people dissatisfied with having only one partner?

    OK, I’ll shut up now. I hope I haven’t sounded too harsh.

  80. Alice

    Mattie?

    Is there anyone (who you haven’t had sex with) that you would die for?

  81. Alice

    Why is it a sin?

    It perverts the sex act.

    It goes against the very purpose of the sex act and uses parts of the body that was never meant to be part of the sex act.

  82. Here’s an article about Gay Muslims.

    http://www.globalgayz.com/g-palestine.html

    The CBC is going to bring up the issue about Gays on the show again I am sure.

    The show is a tool of the Leftist cultural warrior. They will not let the issue go.

    http://www.globalgayz.com/g-palestine.html

  83. John

    Aamar should have been stronger in protesting McGee’s actions. And he should have tried to help Barbur in his search for a new place to have a Mosque since McGee was so intent in performing this abomination.

    Question: would it be inappropriate for them to hold their religious ceremonies in Fatima’s cafe?

    I wish Aamar would have spoken out more strongly against McGee and I am a little troubled that the reason he didn’t was for the practical reason that he was afraid McGee would take away their space for the Mosque. Should such practical considerations come before principle?

  84. Jeff

    Right now in the name of multiculturalism and the belief that they hate Christians too so that makes us allies, the atheistic far left secularists have embraced the Muslims.

    But the issue of homosexuality is going to eventually make such an alliance untenable I would think.

    After all, can Muslims really stand to live in Leftist societies that so openly embrace and promote homosexuality? By the same token, though can the so called progressives (or as we should call them the regressives) long embrace a group of people who aren’t tolerant of homosexuality?

    Being a tool of the Left, perhaps that is why the CBC has made homosexuality such a big part of this show from practically the beginning of the program. But is it really their expectation that Muslims are going yield on the issue of homosexuality? It took the Western Left a long time to get Christians to yield on that issue (and there are still many pockets of resistance) and I think that it would be much harder for them to make Muslims yield on this critical social issue?

    What do the Muslims out there think. Do they see even a sizable minority of Muslims living in Western societies caving in on this issue in the next generation or so?

    By the way I am sad that Muslims have decided to enter in this unholy alliance with the Left in the West. I believe that the Christians and Western Muslims should ally themselves against the so-called Leftist secular progressives as in the end the Left is their common threat as neither of them are going to want to live in the society that the Left is creating in the West.

  85. Jeff

    Once the Muslims and the Left totally destroy Christianity in the West, they are going to have to turn against each other.

    Who do you think will win that cultural conflict?

    At first thought I am betting the Left would as they have a way of infiltrating social institutions and eroding them from within, eventually even turning them into the tools of their own destruction.

    But then again, it took them quite a few generations to get themselves into the position to do that against Christianity, and it took unique historical circumstances that they won’t have working for them with the Muslims. Now, unlike with the Christians, with the Muslims the Left will already start off from a position of power having control of the Western institutions they wrestled from the Christians, but then again that might actually work against them as it will be harder for them to infiltrate Muslim institutions like they did with the Christians for with the Christians since the Christians did have the institutions they didn’t recognize the enemy until it was too late, but for the Muslims, the Left will be clearly in a powerful position from the start of the conflict so they will lack the element of surprise.

  86. Joe

    I realize that this show is supposed to be about imperfect people and imperfect people who often sin, but still it was said to see Fatima in effect support the abomination because of professional pride.

    Shouldn’t principle come before your profession? And is pride any reason to compromise?

    By catering the event Fatima helped it occur. She indeed “participated” in the abomination.

    It is easy to see why McGee is “leading” a declining church membership. Sometimes I wonder if he has become an atheist but since he depends upon the Church for his livelihood just goes through the motions. Atheist or not, he sure doesn’t have any enthusiasm for the job anymore. Indeed he considers it a job, when he is supposed to consider it a calling.

    McGee hasn’t been married, or at least he never mentioned having a wife. Now he isn’t Catholic so it isn’t forbidden for him to marry (am I correct about this?)

    Perhaps he is gay or at the very least molested when he was a youth.

    I believe that the lack of moral leadership that McGee shows is supposed to represent the lack of moral leadership today’s church. I believe you will find not all of the churches in decline. Some are actually growing. But these are the churches who are actually practicing Christianity, instead of being morally ambivalent and turning Christian theology into merely a philosophy of “being nice”.

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  88. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57655

    The Episcopal Church is on the verge of a mass exodus if it doesn’t repent of its approval of homosexual relationships, warn the leaders of three dioceses that signaled their intent this week to leave the 2 million-member denomination.

    The dioceses of Fort Worth, Pittsburgh and Quincy, Ill., have stated that if they don’t receive assurances by Sept. 30 that the House of Bishops will reject the consecration of bishops living in a same-sex relationship and same-sex blessings, they are prepared to cut themselves off from the Episcopal Church in the USA.

    The Episcopal Church is a member of the worldwide Anglican Communion, which, led by bishops in Africa and Asia, largely has maintained traditional doctrines.

    “The Episcopal Church now faces potentially large numbers of departures that would make what has happened until now look like the calm before a storm,” said Ralph Webb, director of Anglican Action for the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a non-profit group seeking renewal in mainline denominations.

    Noting a trend that has developed over more than three decades, Webb said the denomination “has moved so far away from Scripture, Christian tradition and reason that many faithful Christians feel that they can no longer stay within the Episcopal Church and be faithful.”

    “The Episcopal Church so far has downplayed the impact of the thousands of Anglicans who have left the denomination,” he said.

    Initially, denominational leaders such as Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori claimed the numbers of people leaving were so small they weren’t newsworthy, Webb pointed out.

    “Then, as more and more parishioners left, they revised their claim to emphasize parishes instead of people,” he said. “They have ignored the loss of congregations with some of the largest numbers of parishioners in the denomination.”

    The outcome of the House of Bishops fall meeting, Sept. 19-25, will “make the difference between whether thousands of Episcopalians stay within the denomination or leave it,” said Webb.

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