Season 4 – Episode 16 – Keeping the Faith

Synopsis:After Amaar rejects Baber’s request for a women’s dress code, Thorne reminds Baber the Mosque board doesn’t need the Imam’s approval for new rules. But when Amaar refuses to enforce the code, he loses the conservative majority’s approval—and his job. Sarah enlists Ann to join her chili cook-off team but the pressure turns the friends against each other.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Videos courtesy of Mydien

What did you think of this episode? How does it compare to the previous episode? Are there any topics from the episode that you want to discuss?

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253 Comments

Filed under Season 4 - Episode 16

253 responses to “Season 4 – Episode 16 – Keeping the Faith

  1. Nahida

    (Part 1 is wrong.)

    What have they done to Baber? He was always outrageous but never heartless.

    The first scene was typical of him, but his character would have never gone as far as to fire Amaar. Of course, there was the Reverend leading him to it, which is another thing–I thought this guy had something against Muslims in his church, not Amaar personally!

    Amaar is a wussy.

    Also, the way this worked was incorrect. The board can’t pass things they can’t back up with the Qur’an or the hadith because there would be outrage from the attendants. I thought the women of the mosque actually collaborated? While unrealistic in real life (feminists in a community usually fight alone) it would have provided some consistency in the series. When they wanted a separate entrance for them they all decided to stop going. Did they not know about the rule until that sign was posted, and just so happened that day to come in skirts? I tend to wear skirts much more often too but I would have walked out immediately and changed. They can’t do anything about it. Which brings me to another point: what did Baber expect Amaar to do? Throw her out?

    Throwing a woman out of the mosque. He could try and take THAT one up with God.

    • Dalia

      When it comes to the Reverend being against Muslims as a whole and not personally against the Imam Amar Rashid

      –> Amar represents the approachable, rational portion of believers and leadership within Islam

      –> If you get rid of that approachable portion of the community and/or radicalize another (Baber), you can polarize a local community of Muslims and the entire community as a whole (all of Mercy).

      –This makes Mercy a weak community when it comes tolerance of people who are different. This is a method used to get rid of unwanted people within a community and is not practiced by just one religious group or social class.

      –>However it has been happening a lot in small rural communities more than in big cities
      For Canada and the U.S. especially with concerns to religious groups that are not Christian

  2. Nahida

    Oh, and another thing… how could Sarah have not thought of Fatima?

    I love how feisty Fatima is. xD

    She’s FIERCE as Tyra Banks would say.

  3. Delan

    I thought Baber knew arrabic; he was the imam nonetheless which requires him to read and memorize the quran in its original language it was written down, namely high arrabic.

    He even implied explicitly once he actually had all the quran memorized (don’t remember the episode but i think it was several times)

    • Dalia

      Just because one memorizes the Qur’an, doesn’t mean it was done through reading it.

      Memorization can be done through repetition of the words and phrases in a successive order without knowing or understanding the words, but associating a phrase with a specific lesson or idea.

      Often when people memorize this way and don’t know the translation in their own language well enough tend to be like Baber and reference what they know about Islam through the cultural practices they grew up with and and or were taught (example: Baber’s referring to his uncle talking about Jewish people in Season 4 – Episode 13 “The Letter”).

  4. Steve

    I thought this guy had something against Muslims in his church, not Amaar personally.

    I believe Thorne sees Amaar as the lynchpin of the whole operation. Take him down and the rest would just collapse.

  5. Steve

    Does anyone know what happened to the actress who plays Layla? Is she going to school or something like that?

    The reason I ask is because I am sure that Layla would have joined Rayyan in the protest and probably would loosen Baber’s resolve as she has every other time in the past he has taken a stand on women’s issues.

    By the way, Nahida, how is it in real life? I mean is there a “no pants” code at your Mosque? And does your Mosque separate men from women?

    Regarding Baber and Arabic? Who made the sign? I guess it wasn’t Baber. I have always understood that Baber knew far less than he has always claimed to know including memorizing the Koran.

    Yeah he might have acted as the “Imam” in the past but that was never a position he had any qualifications for. It was just that they never had a real Imam and so Baber just slipped into that position.

  6. Steve

    By the way MydienMusic the first part that you linked to was last week’s episode. That’s okay, mistakes happen but hopefully you can correct that soon.

  7. Last week there wasn’t any show.. becz of the Olympics :) Can you tell me what exactly is wrong with it ?

  8. Mo

    I have to agree with Baber here. First you have women wearing pants in the Mosque and as soon as you know it you have lesbian Imams.

    I am not saying that there’s a direct connection or that it’s going to happen overnight but I am saying once traditions are broken you open the floodgates to all kinds of things.

    I mean look at what Rayyan did. First it was about her being upset about the whole pants thing. But did she stop there? NO. She wanted to have women teach Halaqa class. She then sat on the men’s side of the mosque. I mean she started getting really out of control there.

    Traditions are there to protect Islam. Sure some might seem outdated but once we start unweaving them everything starts to fall apart.

    After all isn’t that what happened to Christianity? First they threw out one rule and then another and another until we really do have Lesbian Minsters (which is totally against the Christian Bible). So women don’t wear pants in the Mosque. Small sacrifice to keep the traditions of Islam intact.

    • Dalia

      Muslims all have different traditions.

      Islam is a good faith which is universal, but often specific communities will adopt Islam but also adapt it to their own culture.
      I agree that traditions are important, but when they are enforced in societies from which they do not come, people (male and female) become disinfranchised. What is to stop them from leaving the community, or even the faith, all together?
      Afterall, objectifying women by telling them what they can and cannot wear as opposed to helping them learn and grow in compassion and the tenets of Islam is an odd thing to spend so much energy on.

  9. Steve

    First clip is from episode 15 not 16.

  10. Mo

    Which brings me to another point: what did Baber expect Amaar to do? Throw her out?

    Throwing a woman out of the mosque. He could try and take THAT one up with God.

    Why not? What would he have done if she was walking around the Mosque with her shoes on?

    He wouldn’t have to throw her out at first. First he could politely ask her to get to the woman’s side of the Mosque. And I am sure that the Mosque would support him on that. Remember most of the people at the mosque are immigrants who are used to traditional Islam. Even most women (except many of those who grew up in the West) would support Amaar’s actions there. I bet Fatima would (remember she is an immigrant).

    Traditions must be maintained. The pants code is perhaps a gray area (although women are supposed to dress modestly so I guess the debate there would be whether pants on women were modest or not) but that doesn’t justify the stuff she did afterward.

    • Nahida

      Why not? What would he have done if she was walking around the Mosque with her shoes on?

      OBVIOUSLY then she’d be needlessly damaging the carpet! The carpet’s done nothing. THEY have. By sitting on their side she is violating their space the same way they are violating her choices. And when a woman is making a point and is also there to pray you do not shut her out. Especially when you’re making the same violation on her. It’s disgusting and hypocritical.

      Carpet! There’s nothing I hate more than a bad analogy. This reminds me:

      I once saw a video taken by a Muslim man who was interviewing a Muslim woman who did not wear a hijab. The man asked her how she felt about hijabs. She responded that she admires women who wear them very much, but she doesn’t feel that it’s for her. The man told her to imagine she was walking into a jewelry store. Some of the jewelry is on racks. People can look at them and touch them and examine them before making a purchase. Other pieces of jewelry are under glass, and the owner of the store had a key to open them. They could only be touched with the owner’s permission.

      The man asked the lady which pieces of jewelry were more valuable, the ones on the racks or the ones under glass.

      At this point, I began to fume.

      The woman was obviously uncomfortable. She was cringing under his patronizing gaze. “Well, yes, the jewelry under the glass is more valuable. . .” she stammered.

      “The jewelry under the glass is more valuable,” the man repeated in a tone dripping with fake wisdom. “Because it is real. The ones in the rack are fake.”

      (As fake as his analogy?)

      “Yes, I agree that it’s better but–”

      “So, when can we expect to see you with a hijab?”

      The woman laughed shakily. I wanted to tell that creep to back off. Who the hell did he think he was? “You know, I really don’t think it’s for me. . .”

      She was obviously a nice lady. If it were me I would have told him he was a moron. I would have explained to him that the jewelry under the glass was more valuable because it was real, not because it was under glass. If you switched the jewelry under the glass with the jewelry on the racks, the jewelry that used to be under the glass but was now on the racks was still real, and the jewelry that used to be on the rack but was now under glass is still fake. So his stupid metaphor doesn’t even work.

      • Nahida

        Also, good luck throwing her out when you can’t touch her.

        The Lord has thought of everything.

      • David

        Though I agree that the analogy is not totally correct, I disagree with your reason as to why.

        The man wasn’t trying to say that it’s more valuable b/c it’s under the glass – he was saying that being under the glass indicates that it’s more valuable, as no one would want something valuable to be handled freely by one and all. I.e. – if you value yourself, you need to be under “glass”, so as not to let yourself be handled freely.

        The reason I nevertheless agree that he is incorrect is b/c he doesn’t prove that wearing a hijab is the equivalent of being under glass. Maybe the equivalent is walking around in a glass cage? :-) But seriously, maybe it’s not uncovering your arms and legs? I know nothing about Islamic rules, but is there some sort of hadith or fatwa or whatever about pants?

        Furthermore, if one carries his analogy further, he would have to say that once one buys the jewelry, one doesn’t keep it under wraps; one wears it. Likewise, once a woman is married, she would then not have to wear the hijab??? Pretty ridiculous.

        I have to say that I live in a Middle Eastern country and have seen all sorts of Muslim women. Some dress Western, many wear a hijab and pants, some a hijab and a long robe (called ???) and a small minority wear the whole shebang (burka?).

      • Nahida

        he was saying that being under the glass indicates that it’s more valuable

        Yes, but I’m saying that whether or not it is under glass would not be an accurate indication of the value. It is the jewelry itself–the woman herself. He was assuming (I tried to find the video but I think it’s been taken down) that because she was not wearing a hi’jab she was not a righteous woman. One of my friends knows girls who go clubbing with hi’jabs.

        And there is nothing in the Qu’ran about women wearing pants being unlawful–which means that if anyone states otherwise, it means nothing. Men cannot make haraam what God has allowed.

  11. Steve

    I see Mo’s point although the destruction of organized Christianity didn’t happen overnight and there are still “real” Christians out there.

    But look at Thorne’s Anglican Church. The gay issue is tearing them apart

    http://www.proudanglicans.ca

    Did allowing women to wear pants cause this? Not in itself of course. But it was the lowering of tradition that did.

    Look at the general society? How did it start to get corrupt. Was it Elvis and his hips gyrating? People mocked those who criticized the negative influence of Rock and Roll and certainly I personally like the music itself, but looking back you have to admit those concerned back then were right.

    So, where should the line be drawn? I can’t speak for another’s religion but I can see why the separation of genders during worship can be important. Without tradition it does seem to start a slippery slope. Look at Rayyan. She wasn’t content to only fight the issue of pants but she wanted to have women teach Halaqa class. She then sat on the men’s side of the mosque.

    And then what would be next? She might have started a momentum that might lead in a direction she doesn’t even want it to lead. That happens in movements a lot. The ones who start the movement (often on reasonable things like this pants issue might be) see the movement get out of control and lead in a direction that sickens even them.

  12. Steve

    I know a lot of people who watched “Pleasantville” saw what they wanted to see and was glad when the “Black and White” world started turning to color.

    But what happened after that? It got so bad that one woman was almost raped.

    Sure there were problems in a “Black in White” world with the treatment of minorities and women but we need to ask ourselves could we have solved those problems without going the direction we did?

    In so many ways, live was better in “Black and White”. It wasn’t perfect and we can’t afford to be naive like they were back then, but still all and all I would say of the two worlds the Black and White one was much better.

    (of course the movie tended to support the Color World though at least it was fair in that at the end of the movie the mother of the “real world” was sad about the direction her life has taken her so at least they admitted that there were some cost. That along with the attempted rape in the “tv world” when it started becoming color.)

    Why am I talking about this in regards to this episode? Well this is all about tradition isn’t it? While the pants didn’t seem to have any traditional basis, the rest of the stuff Rayyan did sure did. So where is the line drawn?

    George Parker: What happened? One minute, everything’s fine… What went wrong?
    David: Nothing went wrong. People change.
    George Parker: People change?
    David: Yeah, people change.
    George Parker: Can they change back?
    David: [grins] I don’t know. I think it’s harder.

  13. Bronwen

    Go Amaar!

    Mo, leave Christianity to the Christians. I happen to think lesbian priests are a fantastic development.

  14. Nahida

    Delan– Baber being able to read Arabic does not mean he can understand what he was reading.

    Tradition? “Tradition” is not always Islamic tradition. And cultures that interfere with what is truly Islamic should not be a part of Muslim culture.

    Like this:

    I mean look at what Rayyan did. First it was about her being upset about the whole pants thing. But did she stop there? NO. She wanted to have women teach Halaqa class.

    Mo, I don’t know here YOU come from but it is perfectly ISLAMIC for women to teach classes. As for her being “out of control” I’m shocked you would see HER as the one going too far. The way Baber was going at it, I don’t blame her at all for sitting on the men’s side. If HE’S out of control (which he certainly was in this episode) I’d very contently fight on his level.

    Rayyan doesn’t *want* to sit on that side. Everyone knows that from previous episodes. She had a problem with the barrier but not with sitting in the back. She did here what she had to do.

    Why have women been oppressed for so many years? Because they’ve always been too soft. The language of compromise doesn’t always work! Sometimes men only understand aggression. You can’t stop at what you want because you’ll never get it. You’ll always get less. So you have to ask for more. That way when it’s time to bargain you have what you wanted in the first place.

  15. Nahida

    Traditions are there to protect Islam. Sure some might seem outdated but once we start unweaving them everything starts to fall apart.

    Except some of the ones that seem outdated aren’t Islamic at all and developed after the prophet’s death. Like the barrier.

    Steve,
    Of course I can wear pants at my mosque. The world would know of my fury if I couldn’t.

  16. Nahida

    Oh and,

    But what happened after that? It got so bad that one woman was almost raped.

    But wasn’t that woman almost raped by the people who were still in black and white?

  17. Steve

    I wouldn’t say Baber went way too far.

    A little too far perhaps. But I could see why he would consider pants not being modest enough.

    It was a small point that wasn’t worth Rayyan fighting about. A simple dress code issue that obviously had a good part of the Mosque been offended by it the issue would have garnered the same reaction as the separate doors did last year.

    It seemed like most women didn’t disapprove of the new dress code. Just Rayyan. And as for having the males and females separated seems to be a thing that only Rayyan has a problem with as well.

    Muslims should be careful or Bronwen might be their future.

    By the way, what kind of dress code do they have at your Mosque Nahida?

    • Bronwen

      “Muslims should be careful or Bronwen might be their future.”

      Do you know any Muslims IRL? Because I know a number who would say “Inshallah” to the above.

      • Steve

        I know right now Gay Imam’s seem impossible, but a lot can change in 25 years.

        I know a lot changed in 25 years in the West.

        Tradition stops the whole thing from unraveling.

  18. Steve

    No Nahida, it was the “Colored” people who almost raped her. The “Black and White” people didn’t even know what sex was.

  19. Nahida

    Women wear hi’jabs for God, and not for men. One of the points is so that men can’t influence what they wear, so that women aren’t objectified by standards of beauty they did not choose to set themselves.

    Here it is, the Islamic dress code being abused. What is meant by God to protect women is being used by men to oppress them.

    The nerve of a man telling a woman what she should wear!

    One of the signs of Judgment Day is that women will rebel. The only reason a woman would ever have to rebel is if men cross the line, if men corrupt the system.

    And Baber certainly has.

    Men and women keep each other in check. Currently only men are ruling this religion–and look at the disastrous results. These countries that claim to be “Islamic” are the most terrible places on Earth when they were once the most righteous.

    When women were allowed to contribute as much as men, the Islamic Empires enjoyed their Golden Age as Europe fell into dark Medieval Times!

    • Dalia

      Women are being objectified when they are being told what to wear by men. Period.
      Whether it be about revealing clothing or a Bourka, it is still objectifying and against the point of raising up the living standards/treatment of women.

  20. Nahida

    Both men and women at my mosque have their arms and legs covered–up to ankles and wrists.

  21. Steve

    They were both wrong. Both Baber and Rayyan.

  22. Nahida

    It seemed like most women didn’t disapprove of the new dress code. Just Rayyan.

    Did they even know? I bet they wore skirts that day, and couldn’t read the sign. And they were wondering why the hell Rayyan was sitting on the other side.

  23. Steve

    Sure they were wondering why the heck Rayyan was sitting on the other side because they all approve of the barrier.

    And do women teach Halaqa classes at your Mosque, Nahida?

  24. Nahida

    No, they don’t. It was shown in the first season that at least half of them were against the barrier.

    And yes. They do.

  25. Nahida

    8:39

    Steve, those boys are black and white aren’t they?

  26. Steve

    Well, I didn’t really see the movie. It was pro “color” so I guess that’s where the bias is.

    It doesn’t make sense though. If they raped her that would mean they knew about sex and and knowing about sex would turn them “color”. Sexual knowledge wasn’t the only way people turned color but it was one of the main ways.

    • Nahida

      I don’t think they were actually going to rape her. They wouldn’t know how.

      But it would have been a very violent form of exploitation, and you don’t need any sexual knowledge for that.

      • Bronwen

        I disagree. I think rape could exist in the black-and-white world — it certainly existed in the 50s. That includes marital rape. Sex definitely existed in Pleasantville or there wouldn’t be kids!
        I think people became “coloured” in Pleasantville when they discovered freedom — and one of the most obvious ways to do that would be to discover sexual freedom.

  27. Nahida

    It doesn’t make sense though. If they raped her that would mean they knew about sex and and knowing about sex would turn them “color”.

    The people living here have to have kids. They probably knew about sex but didn’t have a word for it… and there was no pleasure.

    • Steve

      They were a fictional tv town so “how babies are made” didn’t come into the equation since the kids were as fictional as everyone else.

      No, they didn’t know about sex until the girl from the “real world” told them about it. She first told her “tv Mom” and she was shocked and said that her husband would never do something like that. And then the girl said that she could do it alone. She did and that is what turned her to color.

      • Steve

        They also didn’t have bathrooms. Well they had bathrooms but they didn’t have a key feature that real bathrooms have.

        This was a criticism about the way tv shows even up to the Brady Bunch showed bathrooms. But I really don’t agree with the criticism for after all these shows are just shows and aren’t supposed to be realistic documentaries.

      • Steve

        How babies are made.

        First the wife starts knitting.

        And then after a while the wife and the husband goes to the hospital. The husband waits in the waiting room nervously pacing and smoking and finally the doctor comes out and tells him if it is a boy or a girl. Then the husband gives out cigars to everyone.

      • Nahida

        When I first watched this I was really young. Well actually, I think I was in the fifth grade. Either way I didn’t know about sex yet and when things like this came up it all went over my head. I remember not understanding the scene you just described.

      • Steve

        How did you get to see Pleasantville in the 5th Grade? It’s really not a show that 5th graders (or any minor) should really see.

        Did one of those liberal scumbag teachers force you to see the movie in class? It wouldn’t put it past them.

      • Nahida

        /sigh

        No, Steve. I turned on the TV one afternoon and it was playing.

      • Steve

        The only thing I can think of is that the movie is saying that when a woman started expressing her sexuality the traditional (black and white) males couldn’t handle it and wanted to assault her. But does that mean that a “color” man would be more mature about the situation.

        I guess it’s the same criticism many make against Muslims in regards to woman. Remember Baber said he saw a woman’s ankle at the Mosque and Rayyan asked “how could you control yourself”. The question is if a woman doesn’t dress what is considered “modest” should that be an open invite to the males out there to go and sexually assault her?

        Perhaps that is how a “traditional” male would treat a “slutty dressed woman” but I rather think that in reality they would still treat her like a woman and give her respect.

      • Nahida

        He said he saw the silhouette of a woman’s knee.

        Respect her still? Really? From what I’ve heard, it’s only the “traditional” male who uses the word “slut.”

      • Steve

        But then again, there are many places you can go to in the world where if a woman is dressed in shorts or something like that the men start to harass her.

        So, I guess it does get to who is responsible for the behavior. I have always gone for the male but perhaps traditionally society has blamed the female.

        Sure that was one of the things that need to be changed, but then again, what about the way women dress today? I am not saying they should have the bulk of the responsibly but they do dress so they can get attention and then get upset when it turns out to be the wrong attention.

      • Steve

        Nahida don’t you believe that there are women out there who dress and even act like sluts?

      • Steve

        He said he saw the silhouette of a woman’s knee.

        That hussy.

        Yeah I am joking. Obviously such an attitude is way to “Victorian” as we would say in the West.

        But like I said, we in the West have gone in the exact opposite direction. Baber should rightfully be concerned about that.

        It’s all where we draw the line isn’t it?

      • Nahida

        The term slut is used loosely by men to describe women they know nothing about. How would a man know that particular woman is a slut?

        Could it be perhaps he found out she slept with someone… after he slept with her?

        A slut is a woman with the morals of a man.

        Women also make these outrageous judgments about other women. I’ve seen women who “dress like sluts” and are actually in very committed relationships and incredibly faithful. But because of the way they dress other women act like they’re going to “steal their man.” They literally use that phrase. I hate that phrase. Men can’t be “stolen.”

      • Steve

        I guess my question is do women have any responsibility in how they dress?

      • Steve

        Men can be “stolen.” But such men aren’t worth keeping in the first place.

      • Nahida

        Of course women have responsibility in how they dress. They have, however, no responsibility over how men interpret it. The way you dress can be a form of self expression–Perhaps the woman in shorts is in shorts because they’re much more relaxing, and she’s an easy-going person. (I’m guessing shorts are relaxing–I can’t remember ever wearing them.) Why should women have to “dumb it down” for men so that these men can see the difference between a “slut” and a good woman if ultimately it means changing the way they dress and the expression of their personality? Men–and women–forget that people are more complicated than that, and they forget to know the woman in person before making such rash judgments.

        The manhood of “men” who can be stolen is arguable.

      • Steve

        Why haven’t you ever worn shorts, Nahida?

        I ask even know I know the answer.

      • Nahida

        Why would you ask if you already know?

        Because they’re unIslamic. On top of that, I’ve actually never considered wearing them. They’re not my type. I like keeping secrets.

      • Steve

        In other words if you did you would be dressing like a slut.

      • lola

        I like how steve completely ignores the point and then makes one that does not exist

        she’s talking about different interpretations.

    • Nahida

      Steve, I have the audacity to wear red lipstick. To regular events. Sometimes even to religious events.

      I’m pretty sure I know why I do things. And how other people see me has nothing to do with it.

    • Nahida

      Steve is a muggle.

  28. Steve

    Yeah, you are right they are all Black and White. Which doesn’t make sense in context of the movie. They should have been all acting square and polite to her given that they were still in Black and White.

    When they turned to color then they would know about sex and they they could have more than a crush on her.

    But like I said it was pretty pro-color. Though at the end of the movie the “real Mother” was disappointed about what her life was like in the real would.

    And even if these boys were black and white they were not like that before people turned to color. The colors changed the social order.

    Not that the social order didn’t need a little change, but they went too far and ruined it all.

    A little change is all that Rayyan should have gone for. Just the right to wear pants. But she had to push even further.

    Wow, you have women teach Halaqa classes at your Mosque, Nahida. You must go to a really progressive Mosque. Want to bet that someday that Mosque will accept homosexuals? Not tomorrow, of course but say in 50 years or so.

    • Nahida

      And even if these boys were black and white they were not like that before people turned to color.

      Lamest. Excuse. Ever.

  29. Nahida

    Steve, it’s not “progressive” to have women teach a Halaqa class. Women have been teaching since the beginning of Islam.

  30. Nahida

    Rayyan doesn’t want to move forward–she’s returning to how things first were the way the Prophet intended.

    Women go to school and they become teachers. They handle their own businesses and are in control of their husband’s wages.

    There’s nothing “progressive” about it. It’s how things originally were.

  31. Nahida

    You know what I kind of found funny about this episode is that my very religious mother raised me in pants. This is because she actually saw skirts as more sexually provocative than jeans. Being a rather feminine feminist, I wasn’t pleased with this. I had tried to reason with her countless times saying that skirts cover as much as pants do. But in her mind skirts gave a more attractive image, and she refused to let me wear them until I was in high school when I finally won her over.

    • David

      That’s interesting, since as a man I am always more attracted to a woman in a skirt than a woman in pants.

      So I think your mother was spot on!
      :-)

  32. i

    Wow, this show keeps getting worse. First of all, having a conservative say “no pants” is ridiculous. I mean I have never seen nor heard of anyone declaring this. I think the show takes it too far when it comes to what conservatives think. Second of all, they show rayyan as always the right way. She’s not. Going up and sitting by the men was wrong on her part. The show constantly shows that liberal Islam is the right way. The right way is not conservative or liberal Islam. A muslim should not be labled conservative, liberal, or moderate. A muslim is one who follows the teaching of Islam to the point.

    Lastly, I’m not feeling the acting at all except for Sarah’s. The show would be better with better actors who could create the better story and with a better script.

    • Nahida

      May I refer you to Mo?

      He believes pants are a “gray area.”

      And Rayyan has wished her mother the bird flu before. She’s not shown as always being right.

      But it was a fair fight here.

    • Dalia

      Actually some conservatives do think this way. In Canada, the U.S., and pretty much everywhere else.
      The point of this series isn’t to just be entertaing, but to engage the audience in debate (like this blog) and to also bring up important issues within Islam effecting diverse communities in Canada.

      • i

        Oh sorry, I didn’t see the posts here before I posted again, my bad. And I understand all of your points now.

  33. i

    My earlier post was horribly written. Anyways……

    Baber definitely went too far and I don’t think/know that most conservatives would go too far like that.

    Rayyan was right on standing up for that, however I don’t think she was right for coming up and sitting in the men’s area.

    Ammar needs to handle situations better by not trying to “win” people over but outrightly saying what is allowed in Islam and what is not allowed concerning Baber.

    Going back to the barrier issue, though you may say it is not Islamic, I think a barrier is a good thing because I know, as a man, that when I turn around after getting done with prayers I feel uncomfortable that I see woman “being able” to see us men and I’m sure many women feel uncomfortable too in that sense.

    Also, I think they should have a separate entrances for men and women to the PRAYER AREA. Otherwise, this can lead to possible Fitnah.

    And they do need better actors to pull the story through. Right now I feel as if “Sarah” is the only convincing character for me.

    • Nahida

      i, whether you think it’s a good idea to have a barrier is a different cause than whether it has Islamic origins or cultural ones. It is wrongly being passed for Islamic.

      As for Rayyan sitting “with” the men–I’m going to repeat what I said before: By sitting on their side she is violating their space the same way they are violating her choices.

      They were only receiving what they were giving. She wouldn’t have done it if they hadn’t imposed on her personal territory.

  34. Steve

    A fitnah is going to happen someday. Western Society is going to corrode Islam just like it corroded Christianity. It’s not going to happen overnight but it will happen.

    Check this out.

    http://www.al-fatiha.org/

    Sure, today it’s a fringe group but that’s how these types of groups start out. Then they slowly, gradually grow and eventually they become mainstream.

    Again, I am not saying it is going to happen overnight but I would say within a generation or at the most two (25 to 50 years).

  35. Steve

    I guess what I am saying is that the longer that traditions are enforced the longer such a fitnah can be put off. Traditions are the only weapons that Muslims have against the corrosive effect of this decadent Western society.

    • Nahida

      I suppose we should keep all these traditions then when they’re not even Islamic?

      Don’t stop the honor killings then–by all means carry on!

      • Nahida

        You can’t protect one thing and throw the other under the bus in fear of it getting carried away in the other extreme.

        Islam should be protected as a whole. And there are traditions that don’t belong, that go as far as hurting the religion as severely as it would if there was a movement that went to such another rash extreme. And unlike the extreme to which the movement can travel in the far future, these traditions are hurting it NOW.

      • Nahida

        And this not being able to wear pants thing is much closer to oppression of women than it is pro-homosexuality.

  36. Episode 17 has been online :)

  37. Steve

    Remember, this is what got Amaar fired. He did finally stand up in favor of Rayyan’s way of doing things.

  38. Ida - This tells it all

  39. Beth

    We aren’t being told what is really going on here by the mainstream media. It’s not a democratic revolution. It’s a civil war and what is at stake is a Caliphate.

  40. mo

    Better to be feared than to be forced up.

    Here’s a message to my sisters.

    • Fatima

      Here’s a message to mo:

      Don’t you EVER. EVER. FUCKING TELL ME WHAT TO WEAR.

      You better cut off your balls before you tell me your perspective on hi’jab.

  41. Fatima

    Yo, Steve. Nahida messaged me to tell you (because she’s still angry with your unapologetically rape-encouraging schmuckness and will not waste space bickering with you) that just because some people are homophobic/racist/Islamophobic/sexist in one way does not mean that YOU aren’t homophobic/racist/Islamophobic/sexist in another way. And you ARE. You are a homophobic, racist, Islamophobic, and sexist douchebag. And a USER.

  42. Oh Fatima. I actually meant I’d do it myself. But thanks. =)

    Steve, you are a homophobic, racist, Islamophobic, and sexist rape-encouraging schmuck. And a user.

    Bye all.

  43. Steve

    Thanks Nahida.

    From you I take it as a compliment.

    I know the truth about what I believe so the lies don’t hurt me.

  44. Fatima

    They aren’t lies you idiot. You actually said that she deserved to be raped, AND that she was a terrorist.

    Hear that, Nahida? It doesn’t matter what Steve actually says or does because he’s not sexist or Islamophobic, and we’re all just totally deluuuudeeed.

    I killed her, but I’m not a murderer, because I know what I believe. You all tell LIIIIEES!!

  45. Fatima

    “From you I take it as a compliment.”
    LOL!! What does that even mean? If she were too insignificant, you’d BRUSH IT OFF. Not take it as a compliment. Did you accidentally tell her she could say no wrong?

    • Lily

      It’s a compliment because she’s still speaking to him.

    • Lily

      so the lies don’t hurt me.

      You see that? He’s assumed that was her intention. Because that’s all HE ever intends, of course.

      Now we know. There was never any good faith, and he never really believed anything he said or had any genuine concern. He just wanted to cause pain. Talk about evil.

    • mira

      maybe she talks to him still cause he did apologize in a PM? i don’t think she’d tell us if he did. she’s all honroable for some reason even with ppl who dont deserve it.

      • Lily

        A private message? That would make sense, wouldn’t it? Even if that’s the case he said the most degrading things to her publically and owes her a public apology. Well, I don’t think it’s honorable! I think at this point she’s being stupid.

    • Fatima

      Stop talking about this.

      • Fatima

        Because Steve said terrible, degrading, and disrespectful things. But it is also disrespectful to continue to talk about it when it makes Nahida uneasy. I understand the shock and fury, but let’s respect the wishes of the victim. She’s really quiet and personal.

  46. Fatima, get off my Internet. Did you come over just to talk to Steve on your laptop? I want you at the table, now!

  47. Fatima

    I don’t feel like eating. You’re going to end up burning whatever you cook anyway, because you daydream too much. It’s amazing that you’re still alive after you stepped out into the street today! Talk to me instead.

  48. Nahida

    Fatima, there’s this thing called “real life.” It’s when you get to actually see your friends–in 3D!–and hear them talk to you without having to read what they type. If you look up, you can see me now, glaring at you and holding out your (half burnt) lunch. And then, if you set down your laptop, you can actually hear me say something! Like, my real voice and everything! Isn’t technology real life amazing?

  49. Fatima

    I hope your future husband knows what he’s getting himself into! =P What with your half-burnt cooking and all your nagging.

    But fiiine.

  50. You mean my future ex-husband? Yeah, he just sat around all day. Good riddance.

  51. Good God, people.

    @Fatima, at this point I am really not interested in picking apart Steve’s psychology. He hasn’t apologized and he won’t apologize because he can’t imagine what it’s like to be on the other end. He’s said so himself–he doesn’t get hurt. And he won’t, because he’s a perfect person who has all his perfect beliefs perfectly sorted out, and therefore perfectly everything he said was something I perfectly deserved. You see, the psychology is simple: it’s only always about the way he believes he is, and if anyone tells him otherwise–tells him that just because a person isn’t Islamophobic/sexist doesn’t mean he’s incapable of saying Islamophobic/sexist things, or that he’s missing the point, or that it’s not always about him–it simply doesn’t register.

    And so–@the rest of you–when you bring this up, you are really wasting your time. And yeah, you’re making me uneasy. I really don’t want to be reminded of what he said, and I don’t want to be reminded that he didn’t apologize, because I don’t need to be: I didn’t forget. I already know these things happened and there’s no point in digging them up. Also, it friggin hurts. Because we are not all immune like Steve.

    I do understand that it might have affected all of you. It was a gendered attack. You read it as a threat. I know at least one of you is a victim of rape, and that there are resurfaced memories and post-traumatic stress syndrome. I’ve never been raped–I’ve been sexually harassed, even sexually assaulted, but never raped–and it was disturbing and shocking for even me. But this is the Internet. Surely you’ve all read and recovered from worse? This is the Internet, and I’ve reminded myself this, no matter how betrayed I felt by his verbal attack after having written comments to him for so long and no matter how hopeful I was that he would immediately take it back and apologize and no matter how hopeful I continued to be after he didn’t. Surely it must be nothing for the rest of you to stop bringing it up if I can do it. He’s just words on the screen. His real name probably isn’t even Steve.

    @Lily I just read that link you posted. =) Thank you.

  52. Lily

    I’m sorry. And you’re welcome.

  53. mira

    “You read it as a threat.”

    it WAS a threat! its the same guys always do: she wont go out with me, so she should be raped, and ill rape her. she wears short skirts, so she should be raped, and ill rape her. in this case it was shes a feminist and she doesnt agree with me, so she should be raped, except it was “and someone else should rape her”! i dont know whats more pathetic.

  54. mira

    your right about 1 thing though: he’ll never fully understand wat he said or care about wat it does to other ppl. hes a man. why shuld he have to understand how rape threats make us feel? or how its like to walk down the street that has advertisement of half-clad degraded women and to have men snarl at you because the ads make them think youre on sale in a meat market. so fine ill drop it.

  55. Fatima

    mira, there’s no point in arguing with us about something we agree on. The cause of all this is Steve’s douchebaggery, and she merely said that it’s a hopeless case.

  56. mira

    schwarzenegger cheated for years and all any1 can talk about is how the woman wasnt hot

  57. Mira. *hug*

    Actually something’s occurred to me.

    Steve (if you’re reading this at all) can you send me an email And if you do, there’ll have to be a real return address to which I can send a reply in that space below your name on the from where it says “Email”–or it’ll be pointless. Since in the past you’ve avoided attaching yourself to anything you write to the point where you’d decided you’d rather not comment at all when I changed the system on the fatal feminist to require registration, I assume you’re afraid I’ll go psyco-terrorist-feminazi-crazy-bitch on your ass and possibly hunt you down and harvest your organs? In that case make a new email account if you must, that has no personal information attached to it, and use that on the form so you can receive what it is I have to send you. If it’s of any comfort to you, I’m about 97 pounds and you can probably knock me out with a swing if I hunt you down and attempt to maliciously attack you. Unless I have a weapon. Like a bomb or scissors or something. You know, terrorist feminazi stuff.

    • Steve

      Oh, I am pretty sure you could take me out.

      • Steve

        If not you, yourself then you will get Abdul and Mohammad from the Mosque to chop my head off. You know issue some sort of Fatiwa.

      • Chuck

        Don’t do it, Steve.

        She is truly Evil.

        Though I am curious as to what she wished to tell you. Part of her trap, no doubt.

        There’s only one place for her.

        Too bad it’s been shut down.

      • Caroline

        …Wow. I missed this before.

        Steve, do you really think that?

    • mira

      nahida you didnt have to do that just so we’d shut up about it

      • Fatima

        Does anyone else find the thought of Nahida taking someone out kind of hilarious?

        I guess you wouldn’t mira, since you don’t know her but I can tell you that she can hardly open those super heavy fire-proof doors. She has to slam her whole body against it.

        HAHAHAHA! Reasons not to be a vegetarian, #1.

      • Fatima, dear, can you explain to me why I can outrun you? ;] When I can run a mile in 6 minutes and successfully pull you underwater, whether or not I can open a jar of pickles is totally irrelevant.

        Steve, if the mosque was the turning point, WHY DO YOU KEEP COMING BACK?

        Not a fan of head chopping? What a wonderful coincidence, neither am I! It’s soooo…. French. Very out of fashion, isn’t it? I’m glad we have similar taste. All is well, Steve, I’ll be gracious enough to allow you to choose your fate after I’ve tied you up. What will it be? Poison? No, you’d have to help me unscrew the cork. Then I’d have to tie you up again… too inconvenient. A dagger, perhaps? Would you rather I torment you slowly, Steve? I’d offer you the ax but it’s so uncivilized.

        Good. Can’t say I didn’t try. Now that I know you’ll never trust me I can dismiss this without feeling unfinished. Goodbye.

        (PS I’m reading your book since classes are over. It’s elegantly severe.)

      • Fatima

        LMFAO. IT’S TRUE! You can’t open jars! hahahahah

      • Taylor

        As charming and fitting as your dark humor is, Nahida, he will surely misinterpret it. I’m glad you’ve finally ceased to make amends, for they were not yours to make, and because he is an idiot.

  58. Fatima

    Nahida! Really? REALLY? Sometimes I wonder if it’s possible to be TOO KIND FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. Is there a point where that’s actually a sin?

    • Fatima, I just got a comment from a douchecanoe on my post about God and allowing evil that liked my rationalizing of evil in the world to abused children who rationalize their parents’ abuse. UNBELIEVABLE ABLEISM. I bet that person doesn’t even know that what he said was ableist.

      …I had a point to make about this, but I’ve forgotten. I just finished learning/playing the same 10 minute song the piano for like 3 hours trying to get it perfect and my brain is fatigued.

      You can draw your own conclusions, I’m going to read a book.

  59. Taylor

    Nahida, I’m afraid the others are right.

    You are young. Your heart is persistent. Sometimes I forget how young you are, but at times like these I am reminded. Forgive me, I know how you feel about your age, but you must accept that there is a naivety that exists with being 20. Steve has made it clear that he used to come here to be reminded that there are good Muslims out there, and that you are just a regular American kid who happens to be Muslim. He used you for reassurance and comfort. He will not be returning it by listening to what you have to say when you tell him he is wrong or offensive. We have some Conservatives like this. I don’t bother usually with Leftists, but you have called out the Left on several occasions, and I will call out the Right.

    I’m sorry.

    • Steve

      “He used you for reassurance and comfort.”

      Yeah, I thought she was one of the good ones. But I am beginning to realize perhaps there really aren’t any good Muslims.

      I don’t know if it was the religion itself or the cultures where the religion has existed. In the end, is there really any practical difference? So in a vacuum the religion might be good, but we don’t live in a vacuum, and the cultures where Islam gets most of its people from are bent on destroying our way of life.

      What does that mean for those who practice Islam who might have grown up here. Well it seems at least a lot of the imams come from out of country so it means that they are being influenced by foreigners bent on our destruction.

      I believe the real turning point was the trophy Mosque. Surely everyone could see what that scumbag was doing by putting that Mosque where he knew it would upset people. But Nahida couldn’t see that.

      Sorry, if you can’t see that, then obviously you have let your religion take over your common sense. And then you support the uprisings in Egypt where they raped a woman because they thought her a Jew (she wasn’t). I then knew that the path from being a good Muslim to being one that threatens us is a short one indeed.

      • Taylor

        You are really accusing her of supporting the uprising and then associating the future rape of a woman with it? You have the nerve to draw that parallel, when you yourself have said the most despicable things to her.

        I can’t see it either. And you are seeing what isn’t there. You have let your emotions take over your common sense.

      • Chuck

        You’re a fool. And she’s a whore.

        The Devil takes appealing form. It is not naivety you see in her, it is craft.

        No one is this innocent.

  60. Steve

    If not you, yourself then you will get Abdul and Mohammad from the Mosque to chop my head off. You know issue some sort of Fatiwa.

  61. Craig

    Isn’t it interesting that two things that Nahida has promoted here, the Egyptian revolution and France, are both associated with RAPE!

  62. Taylor

    No, it is not interesting actually. What is interesting is that Steve wanted her raped, Chuck called her a whore, and you are holding her responsible for the assault.

    And for 9/11 no doubt.

    The Right has fallen. It has turned on Americans. It has begun to blame victims. Innocent women. Women who are closer to children in their years! For the disgusting actions of grown men.

  63. Fatima

    Oh, Chuck off.

    Taylor,
    We are not children. We are old enough to be adults. Nahida, especially, has been forced to grow too quickly.

    That being said, the Right has not fallen if it still has men as honorable as you. Our alliance is with you. Not with the Right, but with men like you, whatever political standing they may be.

    Your understanding about the mosque is greatly appreciated. You know, Nahida said to me yesterday, and I must say I agree, that to cause such despair is against Islam. She said: “God would not want this, Fatima, to strike pain in the hearts of others, even if they were wrong to feel pain. But what choice do I have when my rights are infringed upon?”

    What choice, indeed, but to seize them, seize the rights that are ours, as Americans? If they tried not to stop her, she would have disapproved of the location.

    But we’re not seen as Americans, even as we act upon our American belief that religion should be separated from the government and build that mosque with the disapproval of God, because religion will not interfere with our place, our American rights, in this country. Separation of religion and government. And to freely purchase property and build upon it what we choose is to fight for the ideals of the Constitution.

    It is dangerous for us, when we fight beside our friends and they see us as enemies. We serve our country and are denied the rights of Americans!

    For a long time Nahida considered becoming a nurse for the army. I pleaded with her not to do such a thing, because she isn’t accepted as American, and she will no doubt be in grave danger among those who are meant to protect her rights, among those she nurses back to health! Steve’s wish may just come true.

    She finally agreed, against her very nature, for she is a source of great comfort and love and would have done well as a nurse. I worry about her frequently. She is so compassionate that she rarely sees anything but compassion in others. She is too trusting of those who mistrust her.

    Luckily, she is also stubborn.

    The good have left here, Taylor, and now so do I. There is nothing here to protect, and so it is best that you should leave as well.

  64. Taylor

    Fatima, I’m sorry but that looks like a kid to me. I can see the woman, and she’s very beautiful, almost regally beautiful, but she has only just emerged. That’s a kid. Twenty Years old is a kid. I don’t mean it as an insult. In fact it is affectionate.

    Although, compared to my age, Nahida will always be a kid. I’ll be on my deathbed by the time she has kids of her own.

    Very well. She is a virtuous woman. My country is in good hands.

  65. Chris

    Don’t be fooled, Taylor. Craig is most likely Steve.

    You were not here when Nahida and Steve discussed France. Nahida was disgusted by the boys who harassed the women, and she associated it with rape. She did profess love, however, for the language and monuments. That did not keep her from calling out rape culture.

    Steve, on the other hand, hated French culture. All of it. Yet he defended the boys’ behavior.

  66. Chris

    What she sees as rape culture, anyway.

    I’m not certain I would call it that, but she has been consistent.

    And indeed, in this day and age there seem to be few virtuous people as virtuous and open-minded as her. America’s youth is corrupt.

  67. Jesus Christ, Fatima. You know, I should really stop allowing people I know in real life to use my laptop and discover this place–lest they reveal every sentimental wistful thought I confess to them. I rather not make myself vulnerable and I can only be glad you stopped there, Fatima!

    Taylor, I am not a child. *sigh* Why did you choose that picture–there was one with better hair!

    You did move me, though. I might have a bit of an Internet crush on you. Don’t be horrified; it’s not serious at all or I wouldn’t have told you. Childish. *glares* Also, I am highly suspicious of charming men.

    You see? Chuck’s right. I’m a whore. A slut, to be accurate. Because virgins are still sluts–THAT, Chris, is rape culture, in France, in Egypt, and in America–America’s corrupted youth.

    (Interesting note: Chuck tried to email me long before I invited Steve, and he became infuriated when I didn’t respond and ignored him. Guess someone’s a little bitter.)

    You are all wonderful, but I will not stand to hear my generation insulted by those who don’t know them. It’s so easy to judge isn’t it?

    As Fatima stated, there is no place for us. We are not accepted as Americans however hard we fight for the rights guaranteed to us in the Constitution and the freedoms on which this great nation was built, and the mosques are hostile with outspoken women however hard we fight for the rights given to us by God and preach the peacefulness that is the core of Islam. We can work for freedom, we can work for God–and (Islamophobic) Americans and (sexist) Muslims both will reject us.

    It gets lonely. And I’m certain everyone else is lonely too in whatever ways they feel marginalized, and that is why they give into desires they cannot control and feel terrible and indulge again to fix it. My solution is to fall in love with loneliness. You’d best not judge.

  68. Taylor

    No horror. Only amusement, because you’re Twenty.

    Although, I am slightly flattered.

    You are right to be suspicious of charming men.

    I realize you feminists are reclaiming the word “slut”, but it certainly is peculiar when you use it. Because, you’re not.

  69. mira

    we have to reclaim it, cause no ones calling arnold schwarzenegger a slut.

  70. Taylor

    Arnold Schwarzenegger is a slut.

  71. Steve

    Arnold Schwarzenegger is worse than a shut. He is a RINO.

    And despite US citizenship he is loyal to Austria. So he is a traitor too.

    And his father was a Nazi. His father served in World War II with the German Army as a Hauptfeldwebel of the Feldgendarmerie and was discharged in 1943 after contracting malaria.

  72. Taylor

    Nahida, you weren’t around during Regan. But if you had been, you would have seen the true Right.

    I am not saying you are not a Leftist. I respect you enough to acknowledge that you know yourself. And indeed, we have disagreed on many things. But you have always been reasonable, just, and strong. If the Left must win, at least it is your Left.

    My regret is only that you will never know the true Right. Scumbags have taken over.

  73. Taylor

    It does break my heart that our feminists call themselves sluts.

    What have we done to our women? Cheating men like Schwarzenegger are glorified. We have made it so that the only way for women to be equal is to take the same approach to sexuality as scumbag men, and call themselves sluts like scumbags call themselves studs.

  74. Why do you regret this? It’s a changeable political standing, Taylor, not a bloodline. Politics are a vile creation of men, not a mandate of God.

    You’ll say the Right has changed and yet continue to associate yourself with it. I guess that’s the difference between us. You’ve forgotten that I said long ago I was sick of the Left. They are as pretentious, condescending, and hypocritical as the Right. The Right denies us women’s healthcare, are indifferent to poverty, feel entitled to police our bodies and what’s rightfully ours–and the Left belittle us; they’ll give to us our rights, they are aware enough of injustice to be ashamed of it, but their passive aggressive prejudice is unmistakably deep and they fearfully compensate and defensively deny it. The Left and Right, both defensively deny it in themselves. The Right exclaims, “YOU SEE?” when I criticize the Left for not viewing me as a whole human being and instead something to be appropriated, but the Right does the same in acting as though I need to be saved or sacrificed so that they can promote their own ideology, in never fully trusting my loyalty–again, I am less than complete to them. They effectively play games, Oh, he’s not REALLY a Republican when one of their own has shamed them so that they are NEVER obliged to take responsibility! So that they may escape their penalties! They are cowards. They are both cowards.

    I’m not a Leftist. I’m a feminist. You may say one is of the other, but feminists have shut up when I told them they are further marginalizing me. Feminists have shut up when I told them not to speak for me. Feminists have called out other feminists. Feminists have accused other feminists of being rape-apologists and victim-blamers. (Recent example: Naomi Wolf, whom Jaclyn Friedman did not hesitate to call a traitor). Feminists keep themselves in check. Feminists understand that when I tell them they are Islamophobic it doesn’t matter if they’re not, because that’s not for them to decide. I’M Muslim, and I decide what and who is Islamophobic. They don’t give me bullshit like, well I know what I believe so the lies don’t hurt me. Instead they STOP THE BEHAVIOR I CALLED OPPRESSIVE. Because they understand that I’m the one who defines Islamophobia–that I shouldn’t have to give a damn what self-esteem issues they have about the bullshit “truth they know about what they believe their hearts” if their oppressive behavior speaks otherwise–because I am a complete person to them. And they know when they are privileged.

    What have we done to our women?

    Possessive? We are not your women. We’re not possessions.

    • Steve

      You don’t get to decide for yourself what is an offense.

      There would be no objective standard if that is the case.

      If you want to be offended then you can say that you are offended and then you get that person in trouble.

      What if I said to you I think you are a hateful person. And then you ask why and I say well I get to decide who is hateful or not.

      You would think “in my heart I am not hateful” screw you.

      Sorry, just like you would totally dismiss me calling you hateful (even though you are) I dismiss you condemning me by your world view.

      • M

        Muslims decide what is Islamophobic, just like poor people decide what’s classist, gay people decide what’s homophobic, women decide what’s misogynistic, people of color decide what’s racist against people of color, etc.

        A person who is not Muslim cannot speak for those who are and accuse someone of being Islamophobic. That is erasure. It is for Muslims to say what is or isn’t Islamophobic. A man cannot say, “This is sexist against women.” Only women can say this.

      • M

        What if I said to you I think you are a hateful person. And then you ask why and I say well I get to decide who is hateful or not.

        You want to know why? Okay, I think you’re a hateful person, Steve. Let me explain why.

        Reason #1: You told Nahida she should be raped.

        Reason #2: You told her she should killed afterward because her friends have not run to her aid.

        Reason #3: You told her that her brothers should be falsely accused of rape.

        Reason #4: You didn’t seem to think she was hateful until she called a spade a spade and accused you of being sexist. This tells me you’re not only hateful but pathetic.

        Nahida, on the other hand, has attempted to explain to you on various occasion why the things you say are offensive, even though she is Muslim and a woman, and therefore has no obligation to educate your privileged self. She did not, and has not, made the same crude comments about you or your family.

        And that is why you are hateful.

    • Steve

      Not playing your game.

      You don’t get to decide what is offensive or not. Because you decision is based on trying to destroy people.

      You hatred is clear and people are waking up. In a way I should thank you. You are pushing our society in a corner and eventually they will push back!

      2010 is just the beginning.

      • M

        “You don’t get to decide what is offensive or not. Because you decision is based on trying to destroy people. Because you disagree with me.”

        There, fixed it for you.

        Who’s “waking up”? Who’s on your side, Steve, other than psychos like Chuck?

        I’m leaving. Nahida, if you’re here, I’m amazed you lasted as long as you did trying to talk sense to this idiot.

      • Carla

        I just love it when white conservatives tell us what we as minorities should or shouldn’t find offensive, and then try to say it’s only liberals who do that.

      • Carla

        http://thefatalfeminist.blogspot.com/2011/07/boundaries.html

        Right. A woman like that can only be bad for society.

      • KelsShels

        Carla: I know! She can only be the root of all evil. =P

        And yeah, the hypocrisy of white conservatives when they accuse white liberals of telling minorities what they should and shouldn’t find offensive is astounding. But not surprising. The same thing happens with other advantaged groups: they ask you not to call a spade a spade and accuse them of racism/sexism because it hurts their feelings. LOL. So, in other words, you have shut up about your oppression so that they can go on having high egos. And you’re not allowed to decide what’s offensive for your own identity because you’re not kissing their ass.

  75. Taylor

    You sure as heck are our women! And we are your men!

    I understand you refuse the first because for centuries we have denied you the second. I don’t fault you for not believing that men and women belong to each other, when for all of history men have denied it and stolen your rights and abused you. I understand that it is our own game you’re playing, by speaking of possessions. And I regret that, deeply.

    You are our women. And we are your men.

  76. The Right also posts videos that INSULT every woman who’s ever been raped by a Westerner by denying that she was ever raped, because there’s no way a Westerner would do it. She must be a liar! *rolls eyes*

    I don’t know why we’ve changed medium here Taylor. This place is toxic and I’m going back to emailing you before I toss my computer out the window.

  77. Taylor

    As you wish. Your comfort is my primary concern.

  78. Fatima

    Gene, look down. Have you got a penis? Yeah? Then SHUT THE FUCK UP. Rape stats are OURS–for US to use and draw conclusions from. Get the fuck back in your place.

  79. Steve

    Richard Gere is a slut!

  80. Lily

    You know, I don’t see why we don’t just start calling men sluts (instead of studs) for slutty behavior instead of calling ourselves sluts for non-slutty behavior. Isn’t that better? I get we can’t do that with “whore” because the equivalent is already “manwhore” and that just makes it gendered all over again. But we can do it with slut right?

    • Fatima

      Nope. It still perpetuates the concept of sexual shame. Many feminists who are against reclaiming the word “slut” are against it because they hear “slut” as a rape threat. They’ve been raped, and that’s what he said. They can’t hear it in even a positive way without being triggered. I’m not messing with that reason. But as for yours, I guarantee that if slut is used to describe men it’ll only become positive for that purpose only when it addresses men. I’ve already heard girls use it playfully toward “players.” And men call each other “sluts” only when they are insulting each other in association with femininity. The same way you wouldn’t call a group of men “ladies” unless you were insulting them. Slut is tied to being womanly, and as long as it’s an insult it’s sexist.

      • Lily

        Okay, I get that. And in reality our goal is to achieve equality by stopping sexual shaming toward women, not achieve it by doing it men also. So it makes sense to make slut positive instead of say making stud negative.

        But we can’t call both Schwarzenegger/Gere and Nahida a slut at the same time. We have to choose.

      • Fatima

        I’d say Nahida and other literally non-slutty women, because my point on sexual shaming still stands.

      • Fatima

        Assuming they want to of course. To force it on anyone would be anti-feminist.

        I’m cool with it myself, but you sound like you aren’t. And if that’s the case, you shouldn’t refer to yourself that way.

      • Lily

        No, I’m fine with it. I’m just disgruntled that the Third Wave seems to focus so much on our right to walk around naked.

        But I guess that goes to show how deeply anti-woman everything is, that something like THAT is even up for debate and needs to be fought for.

      • Fatima

        Oh, I totally hear ya. I wish we didn’t have to, but we have no choice. Double standards have gone too far.

      • Lily

        I’m sure people do use slut as an insult only in association with femininity like calling a group of men “ladies.” But Taylor and Steve didn’t seem to be doing that.

      • Fatima

        Taylor and Steve aren’t university frat boys.

        You may say most of the world isn’t, but we both know enough 40 year old men with that dudebro mentality.

  81. Fatima

    Nahida was invited to a sorority. She declined. I accepted.

    Ugh, she was right.

    • Steve

      The sorority probably wanted to have a Muslim member.

      Bric a brac racism.

      • Lily

        …Yeah, Steve, ’cause there’s no way anyone would want her in their sorority otherwise.

      • Fatima

        Uh, obviously. And if Nahida marries that white guy in her history class she’s in love with, it’s clearly an affirmative action marriage. Get with the program, Lily.

        He’s a racist of the I can’t-be-racist-’cause-these-people-are variety. Ignore him. He only feels the need to continuously bring it up to prove he’s so totally not racist.

  82. Taylor

    Yes, she mentioned it to me.

    Nahida’s a gem. Really sarcastic, but a gem nonetheless. Highly intelligent. It doesn’t surprise me at all that she feels out of water.

    Some good things can come from Greek. She’s strong enough not to lose herself. Maybe she should give it a chance.

  83. Chuck

    She is Full of herself. She will get what’s coming to her!

    You will all Wake Up!

  84. Chuck

    REMEMBER THIS?

  85. Steve

    Iranian Woman Calls for ‘Slut Women’ to be Stoned…on the Pages of Calif. Paper

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/iranian-woman-calls-for-slut-women-to-be-stoned-on-the-pages-of-calif-paper/

    “nfidelity seems rampant in our culture and during these times. Just recently, Arnold Schwarzenegger is alleged to have had a love child with his housekeeper. So what’s the solution to this problem? Shamci Rafani of Visalia, CA has a proposal: stone the “sluts” responsible.

    In a letter to the editor that appeared in yesterday’s Visalia Times-Delta, Rafani — herself the victim of infidelity — angrily calls for the death of woman who knowingly engage in an affair. And she didn’t hold back:

    But the woman who had been aware of her wrongdoing, and yet had done it without any shame or fear, must be punished severely.

    Yes, in many countries, the public will stone that woman to death.

    Believe me, that might be the right answer to the behavior of these kind of loose women, who want to blame it all on men.

    My main question is, how many more families have to be destroyed?

    […]

    These women not only must not be awarded, but they must pay for destroying the happiness and the future of their victims, especially this woman who lived with the family and had become a member of that family.

    These slut women do not know how to say no. To my judgment, these women who freely sleep with married men must be severely punished and put to death.

    If the lawmakers do something about it, you will find less stories like Arnold’s.”

  86. Steve

    Point is, we need to be more selective about where we allow immigrants to come in from because there are some places that just aren’t compatible to America’s culture. She obviously came from such a culture . We have a right, no we have a duty to our fellow citizens to make sure that people who think like her are not allowed into this country.

  87. Taylor

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/opinion/16douthat.html?ref=rossdouthat

    Surprisingly enough, Nahida gave me that link. She also scoffed at it, but said I might find it interesting. I think this is what is at work here. The cultural aspect of America is doing what it’s always done, and what it may even be healthy to do by eliminating inhumane behavior.

  88. Taylor

    What the second half is calling for is assimilation so that the country continues to function.

  89. Fatima

    There are already people who think like that crazy bitch. I’ve heard white people blame the woman who sleeps with the married man instead of the married man himself, even though she had no vow of loyalty. The douchebag did. This woman is an example of a global problem. It’s a virus. She just takes it further to an obscene level.

  90. Fatima

    Hey Taylor Imma be out til the next season. See ya! Lily, you too if you’re still here. Bye

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